venta

I've not been to see it, but gather it's the kind of neo-feminist celebratory empowerment thing that would drive me up a wall. (

iwillfearnoevil did one of the monologues in a performance in Atlanta--feel free to drop her a line and tell her I recommended you, she'll talk your ear off.)

It disturbs me that, from what I've heard from my friend acting in it and what I've read, I'm likely to agree with Slate or Salon.com. I'd make a guess at it being Puppetry of the Penis with mental instead of physical exhibitionism and delusions of intellectual and artistic merit. But then I'm the old codger who keeps trying to explain that one can aspire to gentlemanliness without sexism, and a gentleman doesn't listen to women repeatedly saying 'cunt' in public.

(And what the hell does it mean to 'reclaim' a word, anyway. I've got as good a claim on that one as anybody*, and I'd have handed it away for free...)

*Possible exception being anyone who owns the URL...

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And what the hell does it mean to 'reclaim' a word, anyway. [*]

Actually, I mind less about what they were trying to do - though for different reasons. Fundamentally, a word is an arrangement of letters - I don't see why a word should be considered obscene, offensive, or anything else, beyond the obscenity/offence/anything else of what it represents. (But yes, I accept that this is not the case, and therefore try not to use words in a way that other people will find offensive, cos I'm nice like that).

[*] I'm assuming that was sarcasm :) If you actually want to know, read on...

The idea being that 'cunt' is an obscene word in a way that none of the slang terms for a penis are, and as such somehow denigrates females. Thus people (women in particular) should use the word in a non-pegorative sense, not be scared of it, let it regain it literal meaning, and general rejoice in the empowering femininity of it all.

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The idea being that 'cunt' is an obscene word in a way that none of the slang terms for a penis are, and as such somehow denigrates females. Thus people (women in particular) should use the word in a non-pegorative sense, not be scared of it, let it regain it literal meaning, and general rejoice in the empowering femininity of it all.

I was being sarcastic as to not knowing what the idea of reclaiming a word is. But the concept is both silly and in this case self-evidently wrong. If you'd like to prove that, I suggest the following experiment.

a) Find human lab rat. [Insert lawyer joke here]
b) Take said lab rat to pub across from my apartment, and pick a suitably burly local.
c) Instruct said lab rat to call said local a 'cock', 'dick', 'dickhead', or (if we can go for actions involving same, 'wanker' etc. etc.). I believe we will see observably similar results as if he'd said, 'cunt.' (I'd also recommend a 'double-blind' trial, in that both the lab rat and the local should be 'blind' to the fact we set it up.)

But no one's going around asking for the 'Penis Monologues' or trying to 'reclaim' the word 'cock.' And if they tried, it would be silly. It's a word that causes offense, and is used because it's offensive, not because it's actually related any more to the literal meaning of the word. Sorry for the rant, but really, is 'cunt' a word that anyone really wants back?

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Instruct said lab rat to call said local a 'cock', 'dick', 'dickhead', or (if we can go for actions involving same, 'wanker' etc. etc.). I believe we will see observably similar results as if he'd said, 'cunt.'

Well, obviously we'd need a lab rat to test this, but I think you're wrong. In many people's eyes, cunt is a much more offensive word.

I know a number of people who object if you say 'cunt' in their hearing, and who will actively ask/tell people not to say it. I've never heard this for any of your other examples.

Of course, this may be irrelevant to the original meaning. Must look in my dictionary of slang when I get home - the entry for cunt has a long section on why it's seen as extra-offensive. As far as I can remember, it's something to do with an early dictionary-maker refusing to include it, when he did include other swear words.

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I was always amused by the report on Channel 4 News about the reports of which words were believed to cause most offence. Can't remember the order, but the top three were cunt, fuck and motherfucker. The report had a remarkably fine balancing act to straddle neutrally-reported science, coyness and self-parody. (I'm pretty sure I've seen the ordered list somewhere on The Register.)

I think I can remember the report having been produced in both 1998 and 2000, so hopefully there was one last year as well. Smutty thrills for when you're in the mood!

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Easy to find, really - just Google for register cunt fuck motherfucker and it's there as result #7 below only a couple of porn site links and George Carlin's "seven dirty words" routine.

Will look into this and try to see whether there have been any changes between 2000 and 2002. Academic interest, natch. Sort of.

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And what the hell does it mean to 'reclaim' a word, anyway
What it means is that you use it publically in a positive way, thus gradually robbing the word of its usually highly emotive perjorative power, and in doing so robbing hate-filled bigots of one more of their verbal weapons. I'm all for reclaiming cunt, it's the only word for female genitals that isn't euphemistic, twee or just plain nasty. Why not call a spade a spade? It's a good old-fashioned Saxon word, and it wasn't so long ago that it wasn't laden with unpleasant misogynist overtones. (I blame the Victorians :) )

However, if you disapprove of 'neo-feminist celebratory empowerment' then I doubt we're ever going to see eye to eye on this one.

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onebyone.livejournal.com

Why not call a spade a spade?

It's "person of African ancestry" these days.

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onebyone.livejournal.com

"!" because it's offensive? Apologies if so, my train of thought was led by the comparison with African Americans reclaiming "negro" and "nigger".

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No offence taken here, but it was certainly sharp - hence the sharply minimal response.

Easy to misjudge the intent behind a single character, of course, but "! :-)" would have just been lame.

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I know what it means to 'reclaim' a word, that was a rhetorical question, trying to highlight the silliness of the idea. Believe it or not, I've heard 'cunt' used as a perjorative by people who you would not describe as 'hate-filled bigots,' purely because they wanted a derogatory word. But I do protest that 'cunt' long ago lost most of its literal meaning, being very rarely used outside of a very limited set of situations to actually refer to genitalia, and rather holds most of its meaning in an emotive context. At which point I have to think, 'who cares, and who wants the word back?'

'Why not call a spade a spade?'
If that's what's desired, I'd rather have thought that The Vagina Monologues had managed to do so already by virtue of its title, no philological reclamation work required. :)

You are right that we are unlikely to see eye-to-eye on this, but in general I disapprove of much that is 'neo', most of what's 'feminist', and find silly anything calling itself 'empowerment' in that it rarely involves the exercise of anything that's charitably understood as power. I'd be just as mocking if some group of white American southerners were to sit down one day and decide to 'reclaim' the term 'cracker.'

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But I do protest that 'cunt' long ago lost most of its literal meaning, being very rarely used outside of a very limited set of situations to actually refer to genitalia, and rather holds most of its meaning in an emotive context.

Which is precisely why people think it wants reclaiming :)

I wonder, if it did become sanitised and literal again, whether some other word would take its place. I wonder if a language needs some word which translates as "the most insulting thing you can call someone" (in general terms, of course, there may be things you personally would rather not be called :)

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Which is precisely why people think it wants reclaiming :)

But as pointed out, 'vagina' already fills the role, and is hardly necessary.

And I'd say that languages do need words that allow one to express serious (and taboo) disapproval of someone. Which is why, though I think it's silly, I sometimes feel the need to argue this point.

There's a concept that a word like 'cunt,' because it relates to female genitalia, is both degrading to the person so named and to women in general. And yet, at least in the modern era, it's lost most of that sense: Americans who have never heard the term (or 'twat', a term used more often in the US) will know that it's offensive, if by nothing more than the reaction and the context in which it's used--they won't relate to it as having anything to do with genitalia. It's the fact that it's forbidden that give it its strength--you object to something so much that you're willing to cross the line of a social taboo.

Given that, I think the language is richer to leave the word and its taboo, and merely take the meaning away from it, which is what is gradually happening anyway. The reason to 'reclaim' it is to tie to it the idea that the word is degrading to women specifically, hence my comment about 'neo-feminist celebratory empowerment.' Such reclamation movements never happen outside of a feminist, and usually highly politically feminist, environment--the rest of the world is not screaming for a word to fill a void of meaning with a emotively-neutral alternative for 'cunt.'

[In an odd twist of fate, the woman behind me in the internet cafe I'm in just turned towards a friend of her that was looking over her shoulder and told him, 'You're such a cunt.' Now, if the point of the exercise is to remove the word from the arsenal of hate-filled bigots, is this woman a hate-filled bigot, or are we merely unilaterally disarming everyone out of deference to them? In which case, is it not the emotion behind the word, rather than the meaning, that we object to anyway?]

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It's the fact that it's forbidden that give it its strength--you object to something so much that you're willing to cross the line of a social taboo.

In theory I'm with you on that one, however in practice I think most people either use "taboo" words all the time, without a thought, or not at all...

Re: Next time I shall have to be more clear...

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Re: Next time I shall have to be more clear...

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(in general terms, of course, there may be things you personally would rather not be called :)

Yes. 'Democrat', for one. :)

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I know what it means to 'reclaim' a word, that was a rhetorical question, trying to highlight the silliness of the idea.
Yes, I know. I was trying to point out that it wasn't as silly an idea as you seem to think.

Believe it or not, I've heard 'cunt' used as a perjorative by people who you would not describe as 'hate-filled bigots,' purely because they wanted a derogatory word.
Me too. Some of my best friends, in fact. But that makes me feel the need to reclaim it is more important, not less. That word should not be derogatory, and the fact that it is still seen that way continues and encourages prejudices which we should be past by now.

But I do protest that 'cunt' long ago lost most of its literal meaning, being very rarely used outside of a very limited set of situations to actually refer to genitalia, and rather holds most of its meaning in an emotive context. At which point I have to think, 'who cares, and who wants the word back?'
I do! Am I right in thinking that you're male? Perhaps if you had nothing to call your groin that wasn't offensive, you'd feel the same way! Or if 'cock' (or indeed any other word) was generally used to describe men and so heavily laden with contempt, perhaps you'd want to want to do something about it.

'If that's what's desired, I'd rather have thought that The Vagina Monologues had managed to do so already by virtue of its title, no philological reclamation work required. :)'
Vagina, I would say, refers to the internal parts. There is no usable word that includes the external parts except cunt. Besides, I don't want a latin word, with all its scientific overtones. I want an English word, for plain speaking.

You are right that we are unlikely to see eye-to-eye on this, but in general I disapprove of much that is 'neo', most of what's 'feminist', and find silly anything calling itself 'empowerment' in that it rarely involves the exercise of anything that's charitably understood as power.
OK, leaving aside your feelings about feminism, for the sake of keeping this relatively short, you must have ideas about power that are very different from my own. To stick to the subject at hand (though I feel just as strongly about several parallels) I would say that anything that makes a woman feel that her thoughts and feelings about her body are normal and nothing to be ashamed of is empowering, because it helps dispel ideas which have held her back and made her unhappy. A play which celebrates womanhood is empowering because it makes us feel powerful in the sense of not impotent, it reminds us of our value. I would like to see a male equivalent. In my opinion men are now more in need of that kind of empowerment than women.

I suppose I should probably draw a line under this soon before I start to get upset or angry. As far as I know, we've never met, and I have no desire to offend you. And venta might prefer us not to do this in her livejournal. But one last question:

I'd be just as mocking if some group of white American southerners were to sit down one day and decide to 'reclaim' the term 'cracker.'
'Cracker'?

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Me too. Some of my best friends, in fact. But that makes me feel the need to reclaim it is more important, not less. That word should not be derogatory, and the fact that it is still seen that way continues and encourages prejudices which we should be past by now.

I know. I was thinking of one of your best friends in particular. ;) But again, I would say that the word being used in a derogatory fashion encourages no prejudices whatsoever, except perhaps in the mind of those who wish to reclaim it, and only then because of what I would consider a gender-obsession. Think about your friends who use the term: do you think, when they say 'he's a cunt', there flashes in their mind an image of female genitalia? It certainly doesn't for me--the word no longer has that meaning when used in that way.

See, I've rather a fondness for strong women, and always have, which is why I react to this sort of 'we shall do this to empower ourselves' malarkey. Strong women truly have no need of this stuff anymore, and if the feminist/women's rights movement has so little to do that its idea of empowerment is cleaning up a dirty word, it can pack in the towels and go home--it's done.

Perhaps if you had nothing to call your groin that wasn't offensive, you'd feel the same way! Or if 'cock' (or indeed any other word) was generally used to describe men and so heavily laden with contempt, perhaps you'd want to want to do something about it.

'Cock' is not laden with contempt? And, incidentally, 'cunt' has been used to describe men more than women in my experience. At least I've heard it used that way more often (not always at me ;)). But again, it prompts me to do nothing about it at all. Like you, I think that men have some need to bring honour back to the idea of their sex (what you might call 'empowerment') but to do that by 'reclaiming a swear word' is... words fail.

Vagina, I would say, refers to the internal parts. There is no usable word that includes the external parts except cunt. Besides, I don't want a latin word, with all its scientific overtones. I want an English word, for plain speaking.

See, that's just it. "Cunt" is a word that holds much of its power because it's emotive. 'Reclaim' it and you've sterilised it. I can't say that I have common need for a neutral word for a women's genitals, and if I were so worried, there's always vulva. (I shall report your anti-latinate prejudices to

verlaine.) Take away its purpose, and the word loses its power.

I would say that anything that makes a woman feel that her thoughts and feelings about her body are normal and nothing to be ashamed of is empowering, because it helps dispel ideas which have held her back and made her unhappy. A play which celebrates womanhood is empowering because it makes us feel powerful in the sense of not impotent, it reminds us of our value.

Yes, your idea of power and mine are obviously wholly different. If the word 'cunt' and its emotional load are ideas that hold back a woman and make them unhappy.... no, we've just hit one of those things I don't understand. A man using that word abusively is a nuisance because he's abusive--not because of the word. I don't get concerned if someone uses 'prick' as a derogatory term--or at least it doesn't cause me to feel 'unempowered'.

'Cracker'?
A term to refer to a white person, generally from the South, implying stupidity, generally poverty, and often inbreeding. "The Cracker Monologues", or a man standing on stage saying, proudly, 'Yep, I'm a cracker,' would be equally baffling to me. Equally, I don't think the world's been made a better place because rap artists have 'reclaimed' the word nigger.

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Think about your friends who use the term: do you think, when they say 'he's a cunt', there flashes in their mind an image of female genitalia? It certainly doesn't for me--the word no longer has that meaning when used in that way.
No, I don't think that image pops into their head. But I do think their use of that word in that way affects their attitude towards women, and in some cases is an indicator of a hidden sexism that they're not even aware of.

Strong women truly have no need of this stuff anymore
Perhaps that's true, but not every woman is 'strong'. I myself went through quite a revelation at about the age of 19 when I suddenly realised that I had buried negative feelings about female sexuality. In my case it was 'My secret garden' that helped me work through that and reclaim my own sex life, and I'd be a very different person today were it not for that book. But for some women perhaps it's saying 'cunt' in silly voices. And if that helps even one woman, who are you to say it's silly, or meaningless? That kind of thing really does change lives.

'Cock' is not laden with contempt? And, incidentally, 'cunt' has been used to describe men more than women in my experience.
You're missing the point, but venta has more than covered this issue, so I won't bother to repeat it!

I can't say that I have common need for a neutral word for a women's genitals, and if I were so worried, there's always vulva. (I shall report your anti-latinate prejudices to verlaine.)
Vulva, again, is latin, and therefore feels technical and medical. And refers only to a part, not to the whole. And verlaine well knows that I adore latin and everything about it! That's not the issue.

Yes, your idea of power and mine are obviously wholly different. If the word 'cunt' and its emotional load are ideas that hold back a woman and make them unhappy.... no, we've just hit one of those things I don't understand.
I can't understand how you can't understand. These feelings do hold people back. That's life. Perhaps you're blessed (though some might say cursed) with excessive, unconsidered self-confidence and acceptance, but that's true of very few people. If you don't understand that a feeling that your own body is shameful can ruin your life, I would say that's a failing in you, and you could do with a lot more understanding and compassion for other people's problems.

A man using that word abusively is a nuisance because he's abusive--not because of the word. I don't get concerned if someone uses 'prick' as a derogatory term--or at least it doesn't cause me to feel 'unempowered'.
Again, missing the point. Prick does not carry the same weight as cunt. It's not even a question of degree: it's qualitatively different.

Equally, I don't think the world's been made a better place because rap artists have 'reclaimed' the word nigger.
Well, they haven't done a very good job of it. But that's another story.

Re: Next time I shall have to be more clear...

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Re: Next time I shall have to be more clear...

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Re: Next time I shall have to be more clear...

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Oh hang on... I do know you, don't I? Gloves off, then. :)

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I was confused by that. And that was gloves on? :)

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Relatively! I'm trying to stay calm, so as not to say things I may regret... I don't cope very well with debate, I tend to get upset and go too far.

Re: Next time I shall have to be more clear...

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One more good reason to reclaim the word cunt. If cunt or pussy is the worst thing that most people can think of to call someone, then what message does that give confused kids? It tells them that cunts are bad and filthy and something to be ashamed of. Which, of course, is why we need projects like the Vagina Monologues in the first place. We shouldn't, but we do, because people still grow up thinking their bodies are bad, and in view of the way these words are used I'd say that's not surprising.

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It tells them that cunts are bad and filthy and something to be ashamed of.

That is rather my point: it doesn't. When used as an insult, the word has very little to do with any sexual organs, it's load being more emotive than descriptive. Relating the two in my mind is baffling, like saying that someone who calls someone a 'cracker' has just made reference to how undesirable a snack food is. People do have body issues, but I really can't tie the one into the other...

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