venta | Parental Advisory

Does anyone know anything about The Vagina Monologues ?

I'd been told, by people who I'd regard as reliable, that they were extremely funny. Last night, I accidentally found a performance on the telly. The 2 minutes I watched seemed to consist entirely of a woman explaining how she'd "reclaimed" the word cunt, and then repeatedly saying it in different silly voices.

Which the audience seemed to find hilarious. Which I found incomprehensible. It's not like I found it offensive, it just... wasn't funny.

[One Notional Kudos Point to anyone who realises why I suddenly remembered about this :) ]

Current Music: Anti-Nowhere League - So What?

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From:

floralaetifica.livejournal.com

I know what it means to 'reclaim' a word, that was a rhetorical question, trying to highlight the silliness of the idea.
Yes, I know. I was trying to point out that it wasn't as silly an idea as you seem to think.

Believe it or not, I've heard 'cunt' used as a perjorative by people who you would not describe as 'hate-filled bigots,' purely because they wanted a derogatory word.
Me too. Some of my best friends, in fact. But that makes me feel the need to reclaim it is more important, not less. That word should not be derogatory, and the fact that it is still seen that way continues and encourages prejudices which we should be past by now.

But I do protest that 'cunt' long ago lost most of its literal meaning, being very rarely used outside of a very limited set of situations to actually refer to genitalia, and rather holds most of its meaning in an emotive context. At which point I have to think, 'who cares, and who wants the word back?'
I do! Am I right in thinking that you're male? Perhaps if you had nothing to call your groin that wasn't offensive, you'd feel the same way! Or if 'cock' (or indeed any other word) was generally used to describe men and so heavily laden with contempt, perhaps you'd want to want to do something about it.

'If that's what's desired, I'd rather have thought that The Vagina Monologues had managed to do so already by virtue of its title, no philological reclamation work required. :)'
Vagina, I would say, refers to the internal parts. There is no usable word that includes the external parts except cunt. Besides, I don't want a latin word, with all its scientific overtones. I want an English word, for plain speaking.

You are right that we are unlikely to see eye-to-eye on this, but in general I disapprove of much that is 'neo', most of what's 'feminist', and find silly anything calling itself 'empowerment' in that it rarely involves the exercise of anything that's charitably understood as power.
OK, leaving aside your feelings about feminism, for the sake of keeping this relatively short, you must have ideas about power that are very different from my own. To stick to the subject at hand (though I feel just as strongly about several parallels) I would say that anything that makes a woman feel that her thoughts and feelings about her body are normal and nothing to be ashamed of is empowering, because it helps dispel ideas which have held her back and made her unhappy. A play which celebrates womanhood is empowering because it makes us feel powerful in the sense of not impotent, it reminds us of our value. I would like to see a male equivalent. In my opinion men are now more in need of that kind of empowerment than women.

I suppose I should probably draw a line under this soon before I start to get upset or angry. As far as I know, we've never met, and I have no desire to offend you. And venta might prefer us not to do this in her livejournal. But one last question:

I'd be just as mocking if some group of white American southerners were to sit down one day and decide to 'reclaim' the term 'cracker.'
'Cracker'?

From:

condign.livejournal.com

Me too. Some of my best friends, in fact. But that makes me feel the need to reclaim it is more important, not less. That word should not be derogatory, and the fact that it is still seen that way continues and encourages prejudices which we should be past by now.

I know. I was thinking of one of your best friends in particular. ;) But again, I would say that the word being used in a derogatory fashion encourages no prejudices whatsoever, except perhaps in the mind of those who wish to reclaim it, and only then because of what I would consider a gender-obsession. Think about your friends who use the term: do you think, when they say 'he's a cunt', there flashes in their mind an image of female genitalia? It certainly doesn't for me--the word no longer has that meaning when used in that way.

See, I've rather a fondness for strong women, and always have, which is why I react to this sort of 'we shall do this to empower ourselves' malarkey. Strong women truly have no need of this stuff anymore, and if the feminist/women's rights movement has so little to do that its idea of empowerment is cleaning up a dirty word, it can pack in the towels and go home--it's done.

Perhaps if you had nothing to call your groin that wasn't offensive, you'd feel the same way! Or if 'cock' (or indeed any other word) was generally used to describe men and so heavily laden with contempt, perhaps you'd want to want to do something about it.

'Cock' is not laden with contempt? And, incidentally, 'cunt' has been used to describe men more than women in my experience. At least I've heard it used that way more often (not always at me ;)). But again, it prompts me to do nothing about it at all. Like you, I think that men have some need to bring honour back to the idea of their sex (what you might call 'empowerment') but to do that by 'reclaiming a swear word' is... words fail.

Vagina, I would say, refers to the internal parts. There is no usable word that includes the external parts except cunt. Besides, I don't want a latin word, with all its scientific overtones. I want an English word, for plain speaking.

See, that's just it. "Cunt" is a word that holds much of its power because it's emotive. 'Reclaim' it and you've sterilised it. I can't say that I have common need for a neutral word for a women's genitals, and if I were so worried, there's always vulva. (I shall report your anti-latinate prejudices to

verlaine.) Take away its purpose, and the word loses its power.

I would say that anything that makes a woman feel that her thoughts and feelings about her body are normal and nothing to be ashamed of is empowering, because it helps dispel ideas which have held her back and made her unhappy. A play which celebrates womanhood is empowering because it makes us feel powerful in the sense of not impotent, it reminds us of our value.

Yes, your idea of power and mine are obviously wholly different. If the word 'cunt' and its emotional load are ideas that hold back a woman and make them unhappy.... no, we've just hit one of those things I don't understand. A man using that word abusively is a nuisance because he's abusive--not because of the word. I don't get concerned if someone uses 'prick' as a derogatory term--or at least it doesn't cause me to feel 'unempowered'.

'Cracker'?
A term to refer to a white person, generally from the South, implying stupidity, generally poverty, and often inbreeding. "The Cracker Monologues", or a man standing on stage saying, proudly, 'Yep, I'm a cracker,' would be equally baffling to me. Equally, I don't think the world's been made a better place because rap artists have 'reclaimed' the word nigger.

From:

floralaetifica.livejournal.com

Think about your friends who use the term: do you think, when they say 'he's a cunt', there flashes in their mind an image of female genitalia? It certainly doesn't for me--the word no longer has that meaning when used in that way.
No, I don't think that image pops into their head. But I do think their use of that word in that way affects their attitude towards women, and in some cases is an indicator of a hidden sexism that they're not even aware of.

Strong women truly have no need of this stuff anymore
Perhaps that's true, but not every woman is 'strong'. I myself went through quite a revelation at about the age of 19 when I suddenly realised that I had buried negative feelings about female sexuality. In my case it was 'My secret garden' that helped me work through that and reclaim my own sex life, and I'd be a very different person today were it not for that book. But for some women perhaps it's saying 'cunt' in silly voices. And if that helps even one woman, who are you to say it's silly, or meaningless? That kind of thing really does change lives.

'Cock' is not laden with contempt? And, incidentally, 'cunt' has been used to describe men more than women in my experience.
You're missing the point, but venta has more than covered this issue, so I won't bother to repeat it!

I can't say that I have common need for a neutral word for a women's genitals, and if I were so worried, there's always vulva. (I shall report your anti-latinate prejudices to verlaine.)
Vulva, again, is latin, and therefore feels technical and medical. And refers only to a part, not to the whole. And verlaine well knows that I adore latin and everything about it! That's not the issue.

Yes, your idea of power and mine are obviously wholly different. If the word 'cunt' and its emotional load are ideas that hold back a woman and make them unhappy.... no, we've just hit one of those things I don't understand.
I can't understand how you can't understand. These feelings do hold people back. That's life. Perhaps you're blessed (though some might say cursed) with excessive, unconsidered self-confidence and acceptance, but that's true of very few people. If you don't understand that a feeling that your own body is shameful can ruin your life, I would say that's a failing in you, and you could do with a lot more understanding and compassion for other people's problems.

A man using that word abusively is a nuisance because he's abusive--not because of the word. I don't get concerned if someone uses 'prick' as a derogatory term--or at least it doesn't cause me to feel 'unempowered'.
Again, missing the point. Prick does not carry the same weight as cunt. It's not even a question of degree: it's qualitatively different.

Equally, I don't think the world's been made a better place because rap artists have 'reclaimed' the word nigger.
Well, they haven't done a very good job of it. But that's another story.

From:

onebyone.livejournal.com

But I do think their use of that word in that way affects their attitude towards women

I think that's a controversial statement - language affects thought to some extent, and there are any number of psychologists who've studied the easiest example, colour, and come up with conclusions which vary from "yes, it matters" to "no detectable effect". I've not studied this deeply, but I've somehow got the impression that the consensus leans towards "little or no difference".

and in some cases is an indicator of a hidden sexism that they're not even aware of.

There's a problem with things that are "sometimes an indicator", though, that in the majority of cases, where it *isn't* an indicator, political correctness dictates that in order to avoid suspicion you must avoid the behaviour anyway. This is often unhelpful. If someone is sexist, then either you can detect it through more direct indicators, or else you can't detect it and therefore it is such slight sexism as to not matter.

Vulva, again, is latin, and therefore feels technical and medical.

I'd be interested to know how many people think it's technical and medical because it's Latin, and how many people think that it's technical because it's not commonly used other than by anatomists - your aesthetic sense here might not be all that relevant to the population as a whole ;-)

Equally, I don't think the world's been made a better place because rap artists have 'reclaimed' the word nigger.
Well, they haven't done a very good job of it. But that's another story

They (well, not just rap artists, those in general who care about the issue) have achieved something. Specifically, they've established that they are not afraid of the word, and they do not consider it intrinsically an insult, but that they are not prepared for other people to pin it on them as a label, because they are aware that the only white people who wish to use it are those who wish to make it perjorative.

In particular, this means that those people no longer have a dismissive or perjorative term in their arsenal which is not a deadly social gaffe that will turn the majority of all races immediately against them. Despite my misgivings about political correctness, that isn't an unhealthy situation.

The downside, I suppose, is that those who are still uncomfortable with the term have no choice but to be subjected to it by the rappers.

From:

floralaetifica.livejournal.com

There's a problem with things that are "sometimes an indicator", though, that in the majority of cases, where it *isn't* an indicator, political correctness dictates that in order to avoid suspicion you must avoid the behaviour anyway. This is often unhelpful. If someone is sexist, then either you can detect it through more direct indicators, or else you can't detect it and therefore it is such slight sexism as to not matter.
Possibly. But in the case of my friends, there are several of those I know well who I would say are sexist, even though they don't believe themselves to be.

I'd be interested to know how many people think it's technical and medical because it's Latin, and how many people think that it's technical because it's not commonly used other than by anatomists - your aesthetic sense here might not be all that relevant to the population as a whole ;-)
I don't think it's really the point whether it feels technical because it's latin - the point is that it does!

In particular, this means that those people no longer have a dismissive or perjorative term in their arsenal which is not a deadly social gaffe that will turn the majority of all races immediately against them.
A good point. But would it not be better if we didn't have the divisive situation where black people can use a word without offense but nobody else can? I suppose it's a slightly different situation from 'cunt' because 'nigger' was coined as a derogatory term, wheras 'cunt' used to be a perfectly ordinary functional word.

From:

onebyone.livejournal.com

there are several of those I know well who I would say are sexist,

Would say, or have said? I think that most people (both male and female) are prejudiced by sex to some extent. If someone is unknowingly more prejudiced than they would feel comfortable with if they realised about it, it might be helpful to tell them. But if they'd refuse to listen to you, of course it isn't.

I don't think it's really the point whether it feels technical because it's latin - the point is that it does!

Ah, well, it does matter. We're talking about reclaiming a word, i.e. changing the way that it feels. So if the reason for the way the word feels is just that only your gynaecologist ever uses it, that can be altered by saying it repeatedly on stage in various silly voices (or whatever). If the word intrinsically is, and always will be, technical-sounding because it is Latin, that can't ever happen.

But would it not be better if we didn't have the divisive situation where black people can use a word without offense but nobody else can?

Yes it would be better, and some time down the line that might be the case (or, more likely, that the word will barely be used at all because race won't be a primary determinant of identity, the same way I don't greet you in the street with a cry of "yo, my brunette").

However, for as long as racism is common I think it's unlikely that whites will be able to use "nigger" carelessly without it being offensive. With people you know and know won't be offended, yes, but not in an unknown situation. That being the case, the current stuation is better than some of the alternatives.

because 'nigger' was coined as a derogatory term,

Was it coined as derogatory? For some reason I imagined that it was originally merely dismissive, in the same way that the terms "boy" and "uncle" are dismissive.

From:

lathany.livejournal.com

"there are several of those I know well who I would say are sexist,

Would say, or have said? I think that most people (both male and female) are prejudiced by sex to some extent. If someone is unknowingly more prejudiced than they would feel comfortable with if they realised about it, it might be helpful to tell them. But if they'd refuse to listen to you, of course it isn't."

How do you tell someone that they are too sexist ? Usually the comment is met with denial, and then a request for proof. The last is often hard to give and I have always found that it involves quoting the person - which upsets them more when they claim "out of context".

The trouble is, being sexist is a much greater crime than pretty much most other faults (compare it to "messy", "lazy", etc.). Consequently I always find it difficult to raise without totally upsetting the person in question.

From:

onebyone.livejournal.com

How do you tell someone that they are too sexist ?

Cunningly engineer a debate about subconscious sexism, maybe, so that people are somewhat curious to know what other people's opinions of their behaviour is, and thus less likely to be upset?

I find it relatively easy to accuse people of sexism (or other forms of discrimination, of which the most common I see is anti-Americanism and of which I'm arguably guilty myself when it comes to their government). Often they disagree with me, pay no attention, or claim that it isn't important, but if someone appears to be discriminating I have the option available to say so. If they're unfairly treating someone who's a friend of mine, I might even use emotionally loaded terms...

Usually the comment is met with denial, and then a request for proof

I tend not to approach it as a case of "you're sexist (or anti-American), and here's a list of incidents which prove it", but more by waiting for occasions where they do show bias, and saying *at that time*, something like "I think you're showing your prejudices there". Certainly when people have made similar comments to me, it's enough to make me stop and think about it (even if I'm not willing to argue it out with them).

I agree that if they're just going to be upset and defensive, there's no point causing trouble for no benefit. But I don't think that's always the case.

From:

condign.livejournal.com

I can't understand how you can't understand. These feelings do hold people back. That's life. Perhaps you're blessed (though some might say cursed) with excessive, unconsidered self-confidence and acceptance, but that's true of very few people. If you don't understand that a feeling that your own body is shameful can ruin your life, I would say that's a failing in you, and you could do with a lot more understanding and compassion for other people's problems.

I think there is a somewhat substantial gap between 'feeling that your own body is shameful' and how it can ruin one's life, and the need to redefine the emotional load of a relatively uncommon expletive. There is no cognitive dissonance involved in believing a) women should not feel ashamed of their bodies and b) a woman standing on stage muttering a swear word in strange voices is both offensive and silly.

Perhaps there is someone out there that might be helped by it--I can't prove otherwise. I doubt its up there on any top-ten list of things to improve, even if that list is filtered for gender issues. And reclaiming the word does lose something pretty valuable--all of its power. You mention that 'vulva' or 'vagina' don't cover the entire issue (and I'll admit to lack of knowledge of the anatomical borders of 'cunt'), and are 'clinical', but there are very few situations, particularly in polite society, where one needs a word to describe sex organs--take away its emotional load and cunt will become dry and clinical, it having nothing else it needs to carry.

(And, incidentally, it's amusing how often a the world sees a lack of compassion in the insistence that something be effective to be important.)

Again, missing the point. Prick does not carry the same weight as cunt. It's not even a question of degree: it's qualitatively different.

How so? I will admit here to what seems to be a lack of knowledge as to the precise usages of curse-words, though I'll also point out that I've always believed such words, and their power, came from not having precise definitions--that wonderful webpage about how 'fuck' can be used in every part of speech...