venta | Parental Advisory

Does anyone know anything about The Vagina Monologues ?

I'd been told, by people who I'd regard as reliable, that they were extremely funny. Last night, I accidentally found a performance on the telly. The 2 minutes I watched seemed to consist entirely of a woman explaining how she'd "reclaimed" the word cunt, and then repeatedly saying it in different silly voices.

Which the audience seemed to find hilarious. Which I found incomprehensible. It's not like I found it offensive, it just... wasn't funny.

[One Notional Kudos Point to anyone who realises why I suddenly remembered about this :) ]

Current Music: Anti-Nowhere League - So What?

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

From:

onebyone.livejournal.com

But I do think their use of that word in that way affects their attitude towards women

I think that's a controversial statement - language affects thought to some extent, and there are any number of psychologists who've studied the easiest example, colour, and come up with conclusions which vary from "yes, it matters" to "no detectable effect". I've not studied this deeply, but I've somehow got the impression that the consensus leans towards "little or no difference".

and in some cases is an indicator of a hidden sexism that they're not even aware of.

There's a problem with things that are "sometimes an indicator", though, that in the majority of cases, where it *isn't* an indicator, political correctness dictates that in order to avoid suspicion you must avoid the behaviour anyway. This is often unhelpful. If someone is sexist, then either you can detect it through more direct indicators, or else you can't detect it and therefore it is such slight sexism as to not matter.

Vulva, again, is latin, and therefore feels technical and medical.

I'd be interested to know how many people think it's technical and medical because it's Latin, and how many people think that it's technical because it's not commonly used other than by anatomists - your aesthetic sense here might not be all that relevant to the population as a whole ;-)

Equally, I don't think the world's been made a better place because rap artists have 'reclaimed' the word nigger.
Well, they haven't done a very good job of it. But that's another story

They (well, not just rap artists, those in general who care about the issue) have achieved something. Specifically, they've established that they are not afraid of the word, and they do not consider it intrinsically an insult, but that they are not prepared for other people to pin it on them as a label, because they are aware that the only white people who wish to use it are those who wish to make it perjorative.

In particular, this means that those people no longer have a dismissive or perjorative term in their arsenal which is not a deadly social gaffe that will turn the majority of all races immediately against them. Despite my misgivings about political correctness, that isn't an unhealthy situation.

The downside, I suppose, is that those who are still uncomfortable with the term have no choice but to be subjected to it by the rappers.

From:

floralaetifica.livejournal.com

There's a problem with things that are "sometimes an indicator", though, that in the majority of cases, where it *isn't* an indicator, political correctness dictates that in order to avoid suspicion you must avoid the behaviour anyway. This is often unhelpful. If someone is sexist, then either you can detect it through more direct indicators, or else you can't detect it and therefore it is such slight sexism as to not matter.
Possibly. But in the case of my friends, there are several of those I know well who I would say are sexist, even though they don't believe themselves to be.

I'd be interested to know how many people think it's technical and medical because it's Latin, and how many people think that it's technical because it's not commonly used other than by anatomists - your aesthetic sense here might not be all that relevant to the population as a whole ;-)
I don't think it's really the point whether it feels technical because it's latin - the point is that it does!

In particular, this means that those people no longer have a dismissive or perjorative term in their arsenal which is not a deadly social gaffe that will turn the majority of all races immediately against them.
A good point. But would it not be better if we didn't have the divisive situation where black people can use a word without offense but nobody else can? I suppose it's a slightly different situation from 'cunt' because 'nigger' was coined as a derogatory term, wheras 'cunt' used to be a perfectly ordinary functional word.

From:

onebyone.livejournal.com

there are several of those I know well who I would say are sexist,

Would say, or have said? I think that most people (both male and female) are prejudiced by sex to some extent. If someone is unknowingly more prejudiced than they would feel comfortable with if they realised about it, it might be helpful to tell them. But if they'd refuse to listen to you, of course it isn't.

I don't think it's really the point whether it feels technical because it's latin - the point is that it does!

Ah, well, it does matter. We're talking about reclaiming a word, i.e. changing the way that it feels. So if the reason for the way the word feels is just that only your gynaecologist ever uses it, that can be altered by saying it repeatedly on stage in various silly voices (or whatever). If the word intrinsically is, and always will be, technical-sounding because it is Latin, that can't ever happen.

But would it not be better if we didn't have the divisive situation where black people can use a word without offense but nobody else can?

Yes it would be better, and some time down the line that might be the case (or, more likely, that the word will barely be used at all because race won't be a primary determinant of identity, the same way I don't greet you in the street with a cry of "yo, my brunette").

However, for as long as racism is common I think it's unlikely that whites will be able to use "nigger" carelessly without it being offensive. With people you know and know won't be offended, yes, but not in an unknown situation. That being the case, the current stuation is better than some of the alternatives.

because 'nigger' was coined as a derogatory term,

Was it coined as derogatory? For some reason I imagined that it was originally merely dismissive, in the same way that the terms "boy" and "uncle" are dismissive.

From:

lathany.livejournal.com

"there are several of those I know well who I would say are sexist,

Would say, or have said? I think that most people (both male and female) are prejudiced by sex to some extent. If someone is unknowingly more prejudiced than they would feel comfortable with if they realised about it, it might be helpful to tell them. But if they'd refuse to listen to you, of course it isn't."

How do you tell someone that they are too sexist ? Usually the comment is met with denial, and then a request for proof. The last is often hard to give and I have always found that it involves quoting the person - which upsets them more when they claim "out of context".

The trouble is, being sexist is a much greater crime than pretty much most other faults (compare it to "messy", "lazy", etc.). Consequently I always find it difficult to raise without totally upsetting the person in question.

From:

onebyone.livejournal.com

How do you tell someone that they are too sexist ?

Cunningly engineer a debate about subconscious sexism, maybe, so that people are somewhat curious to know what other people's opinions of their behaviour is, and thus less likely to be upset?

I find it relatively easy to accuse people of sexism (or other forms of discrimination, of which the most common I see is anti-Americanism and of which I'm arguably guilty myself when it comes to their government). Often they disagree with me, pay no attention, or claim that it isn't important, but if someone appears to be discriminating I have the option available to say so. If they're unfairly treating someone who's a friend of mine, I might even use emotionally loaded terms...

Usually the comment is met with denial, and then a request for proof

I tend not to approach it as a case of "you're sexist (or anti-American), and here's a list of incidents which prove it", but more by waiting for occasions where they do show bias, and saying *at that time*, something like "I think you're showing your prejudices there". Certainly when people have made similar comments to me, it's enough to make me stop and think about it (even if I'm not willing to argue it out with them).

I agree that if they're just going to be upset and defensive, there's no point causing trouble for no benefit. But I don't think that's always the case.