And then I'll kiss your salty lips

[venta]

Yesterday evening I was sitting on the sea-front at Ramsgate, eating fish and chips. They were pretty good fish and chips, actually. However, the menu bewildered me...



The "sundries" section. Right there. Curry sauce? Fair enough. Mushy peas? Well, I'd rather not but I hear some people like that kind of thing. Pea fritter? You what? I mean, I understand the concept, but since when has that been a thing that you get in a chippy? Pickled onion, fine. Pickled egg, ditto (whatever dmh tells you). Pickled... wally?

I'm also faintly alarmed that the curry sauce isn't vegetarian. What's it got in it? I'd have assumed the basic list of flour, water, oil, curry powder and radioactive waste (with local variations to taste).

Oh, and a roll and butter? Not bloody likely. I'm in a chip shop. The sort where you sit down at a formica-topped table and drink tea that dissolves the enamel off your teeth. If I want bread and butter with my meal, I want sliced bread, pre-buttered for me (or possibly even pre-marged) and cut diagonally. I'm not saying that's better, I'm saying that that's what happens in chip shops. This roll nonsense is just messing with the natural order of things[*].

When I first moved to Oxford, I was horrified to discover that the Carfax Chippy - an otherwise decent emporium - didn't serve scraps. And indeed were completely confused when I ordered them (initially as to what it was I wanted, and latterly as to why I wanted such things). Scraps are the drips of batter which have fallen off the fish - basically little blobs of deep-fried batter. No, of course they didn't serve them. They threw them away when they cleared the oil out. They also didn't serve baby's heads.

So, what are your expectations of a good chip shop? Do you expect pea fritters? Would you order a pickled wally? Am I the only person south of Scotch Corner who likes scraps? What can't you get where you now live, that was a stand-by where you grew up?

As a side note, my parents (if not paying proper attention) will inadvertently order "a fish and six". This is, apparently, a fish with 6d-worth of chips. Whether they get a sensible answer depends largely on the age of the person serving. Is anyone else familiar with this?

(A wally, for those who want to know, is a gherkin. I asked on the way out.)

[*] Chip butties are an exception. I'm talking about the bread served with your fish and chips in a sit-down eatery. But even for a chip butty I don't want a roll, I want a flat, soft bread bun or bap. Which may have been what they meant. See also: bread, confusing regional terminology for.

Comments

[beckyc.livejournal.com]

I'm more worried about the mineral water not being vegetarian.

(Unless, of course, the mineral water went through limestone and they were having a one-upping game with Silk soya milk who claim they use no animal derivatives and then say they use natural limestone for their calcium)

[venta.livejournal.com]

But surely, even in menus where things are labelled (v), it's not normal to label water as vegetarian?

The roll & butter aren't labelled (v), but I figure there are some things people will assume are vegetarian and you'd only need to mention it if they were unexpectedly not. Then again, I'm surprised they labelled the pickles and the mushy peas...

[beckyc.livejournal.com]

but I figure there are some things people will assume are vegetarian and you'd only need to mention it if they were unexpectedly not. Then again, I'm surprised they labelled the pickles and the mushy peas...

So why are you surprised the curry sauce isn't?

Or is it just a question of where to draw an arbitrary line?

[venta.livejournal.com]

The line does seem to be a bit arbitrary.

However, if you said that you served:
- curry sauce
- pickles
- mushy peas
- pea fritters

then I think my default assumption would be that they were all vegetarian. If you label three of them (v) but not the fourth, I get suspicious about that fourth. Of those four, I think curry sauce is the one that mostly likely could be unsuitable for vegetarians, although I'd be very surprised.

Even if you labelled all 4 of them (v), I still think things in another section of the menu (like mineral water) I wouldn't expect to be labelled.

I think mostly the curry sauce appeared un-vegetarian to me because it was in a section where everything else was (slightly unnecessarily) labelled (v).

[pseudomonas.livejournal.com]

I think pea fritters would be the most likely non-veggie thing by virtue of being fried in animal fat (or, more likely, fried in the same fat as animal products)

[venta.livejournal.com]

Ah, good point. Not being used to having to look out for such things, I hadn't thought of it.

I guess if they fry their chips separately in vegetable oil, they could perhaps fritter things in there, too.

[pseudomonas.livejournal.com]

Indeed. It's not implausible that they have a non-meaty fryer, especially in a big shop - but it's by no means a given. Different people have different standards as to whether co-frying-with-meat makes things non-vegetarian.

[venta.livejournal.com]

One day, I'd like to do a direct taste-comparison of chips fried in different things. Lots of people talk about how chips fried in lard are way better than those fried in oil. I'm aware that sometimes you get good chips, bad chips and better chips but have never managed to correlate it to what they're fried in. My non-meat-eating friends tell me that Whitby chip shops tend to use lard, and you do get good chips in Whitby, but I don't know if those facts are related.

Obviously you can have good chips-in-oil, and bad chips-in-lard, but I want carefully controlled identically-processed chips in oil and lard so I can compare. I have no idea how to achieve this :)

[pseudomonas.livejournal.com]

Hmm. I'd be interested to see the results of that (though if it showed that lard was better I wouldn't want too much publicity for it ;)).

My suspicion would be that chip shops that go out their way to use a cooking fat that's not the default standard also go out their way to cook the things properly - I think that proper temperature control and giving the things enough time are probably more of a factor, at least in terms of not giving pallid greasy squishy things.

[lnr]

I understand it's to do with the relative temperature - things fried in lard can be fried hotter, which is definitely better for batter, and possibly for chips. Chips is seasonal though - they're always rubbish in the new potato season.

[beckyc.livejournal.com]

I was about to say much the same thing :-)

[venta.livejournal.com]

Actually, I have an unrelated question to which you might know the answer. Can you recommend a non-dairy milk-esque product which comes in smaller boxes/cartons/quantities?

A friend of mine sporadically drops round, and I try to have UHT soya milk in the cupboard so I can make her coffee. Unfortunately, that tends to mean I end up with an open carton of soya milk (less one coffee's worth) in the fridge, and I don't really like the stuff much. And an open carton isn't usually practical for her to take away. (And I don't want to ask her about this in case it sounds like I'm finding it a big problem. Which, of course, it isn't - soya milk is cheap - it's just a bit wasteful.)

In Tesco, I've spotted some weird tiny-tetrapak things of "lacto-free milk", but I'm not quite sure enough exactly what she's allergic to to know whether that would be ok. I think soya is her milky substance of preference.

Hmm. Can I freeze soya milk in ice cube trays and just get a cube or two out as required? Will it still be palatable?

[beckyc.livejournal.com]

"lacto-free milk", but I'm not quite sure enough exactly what she's allergic to to know whether that would be ok.
Yeah, I'd go with "don't touch lacto free milk with a bargepole unless you know for sure"

You could probably make an educated guess on what is most likely the reason based on e.g. whether or not they ate any other dairy products, or if they seemed like they had a cold all the time, or if they had asthma, or which part of the world their ancestors came from (we are biased by living in Northern Europe to think that adult lactose tolerance is the norm, but worldwide it isn't).

But best not try the guess on them ;-).

Will it still be palatable?
Ah, but would it be palatable in the first place?! ;-). I don't put fake milk in my coffee (unless I'm making a latte, where I start from not-cold milk), because it curdles and tastes less nice than black coffee unless you handle it just right.

Can you recommend a non-dairy milk-esque product which comes in smaller boxes/cartons/quantities?
If you go to a big supermarket or a healthfood store, you can buy small cartons of not-milk to be drunk with a straw, like you would have got in primary school if Maggie hadn't got rid of them. Many of them are long life. You can also get powdered soya milk which you make up, though I thought the concept was too horrific to try.

And I don't want to ask her about this in case it sounds like I'm finding it a big problem. Which, of course, it isn't - soya milk is cheap - it's just a bit wasteful.
Could you not just drop it into conversation casually, along the lines of "Oh, my friend Becky says that $otherMilk is tastier, what do you think?". Or even "My friend Becky thinks coconut is indigestible, isn't that strange and unusual?"

That way you can find out their favourite brand ;-).

[venta.livejournal.com]

You could probably make an educated guess

Worse, I'm pretty sure I've been told in the past and can't remember :) I think it's something to do with proteins, and whatever it is is present in cow-milk but not other-milk. So she eats goats cheese or buffalo mozarella, etc, but not any cow-dairy. To make it mildly more complicated, her husband is also dairy-intolerant but in a different way.

I know her favourite brand: for preference they both drink "fresh" Alpro soya milk in tea/coffee. Which is fine, I can get that in if I know they're coming. Of late, I've had a few "we're in the area, can we pop in" calls when the UHT stuff has had to come out the cupboard. My big local Tesco and Sainsburys (and small local health food shop) don't stock small-size cartons of any brand - I've been looking. Unless you buy strawberry or chocolate flavour, which I think would definitely make tea and coffee unpalatable. Or at least a bit weird. However, if these small cartons do definitely exist I shall continue seeking.

Sometimes (especially if arriving on low notice) they import their own milk, but I'd like to be slightly better provided Just In Case.

[bateleur.livejournal.com]

However, if these small cartons do definitely exist I shall continue seeking.

Alpro discontinued theirs last time I checked, but other brands still exist.

[lnr]

Rice Dream seems to come in multi-packs of small 200ml cartons on Ocado too.

[venta.livejournal.com]

Yup, it's much easier to find small cartons of un-cream that it is un-milk,

[beckyc.livejournal.com]

The rice dream ocado has listed is all unmilk....

[beckyc.livejournal.com]

Worse, I'm pretty sure I've been told in the past and can't remember :)

I'm pretty sure that's normal to forget. Or at least typical.

Hardly anyone remembers that I'm DF, not lactose free. And if they know someone who is lactose free, you can bet your bottom dollar they'll forget what part I can't eat!

Fresh Alpro is surprisingly nice. Especially compared to UHT stuff. Probably worth a go freezing it.

I think it's something to do with proteins, and whatever it is is present in cow-milk but not other-milk.
She's (relatively) lucky then.

When my allergist figured out the dairy issue, I asked about other animal milk, and got told the proteins were sufficiently similar to still cause issues for most people* (though t'interwebs does say that some people can, just as some people can manage heat treated dairy products if it's only the heat-denaturable proteins that they can't have).

*I couldn't tell you what "people" actually means in that context. People with atopy? People that have been having a bad response to dairy? Adults going to see an allergist? All people who have an immune response to dairy protein**
**AIUI, that group would mostly be infants.