I know I'll see your face again

[venta]

Newsflash! Science can save you money!

I take glucosamine tablets, because I have lots of joint problems. I don't know whether it does any good, but it seemed like a worthwhile idea. I'm running out of pills.

Just before popping out to the shops, I idly went to Wikipedia to read up about glucosamine. Among other things, I have discovered that according to a Cochrane review, it doesn't do much (although they were looking more at effects on athritis). So maybe I won't bother.

If, in a few weeks time, bits of me are hurting more, I may go back to taking them because I'm willing to pay a few quid for a possibly placebo-based effect. If not, hurrah, money saved.

Comments

[beckyc.livejournal.com]

When I was training for the Inca trail a few years ago (said training knackers the knees), one GP swore that Glucosamine was fabulous for joints* and gave me an NHS prescription for it. At the followup with a different GP, that one swore *at* the glucosamine and said it was for really gullible people.

*Although this was for exercise damage, not any kind of arthritis.

[exspelunca.livejournal.com]

Basic rule of alternative medicines: if it works for you, carry on. Or you could try copper bracelets, cod liver oil capsules or any other remedy the web throws up. Every one of them will have its disciples. Or you could stop dancing rapper.

[venta.livejournal.com]

Well, it hasn't obviously been working, in that I've noticed no correlation between improvement in symptoms and tablet-taking. I may notice now I've stopped, in which case I shall start again.

[serpentstar.livejournal.com]

I really don't believe it's a placebo. I mean -- I could be wrong. But I really don't believe it.

I use glucosamine with chondroitin, admittedly (so it's possible that it's only the chondroitin that's doing much). I am also pretty sceptical. I know that doesn't make one immune to the placebo effect. But it can't hurt.

I do know that a month or two after I start taking it, the constant pain in my right knee goes away (and, I've tried stopping -- and the pain comes back). It also no longer gets aggravated by long car journeys if I'm on glucosamine.

I also know that it made a *massive* difference to my mother-in-law's mobility after about 6 weeks -- from the point where she couldn't bend over at all to the point where she was able to sit on the floor, kneel, etc.

Plus, it worked on my arthritic dog... who wasn't really smart enough to get placeboed up, I reckon.

[ar-boblad.livejournal.com]

Ooh... placebo effect in animals, that'd be an interesting. /me gets googling for reports.

[venta.livejournal.com]

I'm pretty sure I've read stuff which says you can get placebo effects in animals.

I have read it on The Internet, though, so it may have been bollocks.

[ar-boblad.livejournal.com]

Looking around there was some stuff in the 60s based on rats that had a cautious yes to placebo effects. More recently the debate is well muddied by people who claim that if animals can't experience placebo then dog homeopathy seeming to work is proof that homeopathy isn't nonsense.

It's further muddied by people who sell books to dog lovers but don't quote sources when they make claims. A pertinent line I came across was

"A recent double-blind veterinary study involved arthritic dogs randomly assigned to either a treatment or a placebo group. Their response to treatment was objectively assessed by force-plate analysis, which precisely measures the use of individual limbs while a dog is in motion. The result? Fifty-six percent of placebo-treated dogs had an objectively measured, significant, positive response."

but no further details on the trial are provided so *shrug*.

[onebyone.livejournal.com]

if animals can't experience placebo then dog homeopathy seeming to work is proof that homeopathy isn't nonsense

That's probably homeopaths (as usual) defining "seeming to work" as "showing a positive outcome", not "showing a better response than placebo". Perhaps with some reversion-to-mean thrown in, which you can't eliminate without reference to a proper control group. And that's assuming no selection or publication bias.

If (as posited) placebo doesn't work in dogs, then homeopathy still "works" (on dogs) if and only if it out-performs placebo (on dogs). Exactly the same as if placebo does work in dogs and you define "works" properly. So you might as well compare homeopathy to placebo in dogs, instead of resting your results on a rather dodgy assumption about the effect of placebo on dogs...

[onebyone.livejournal.com]

if placebo does work in dogs and you define "works" properly

By which I mean, if placebo does improve outcomes in dogs compared with no treatment, and you define "homeopathy works" by comparison with placebo.

[ar-boblad.livejournal.com]

I completely agree that the line you've quoted is a spurious argument, I mentioned it as the major reason why a little research on animal placebo wasn't going to be productive for me.

People who specialize in terrible arguments and who quote results of badly defined trials are making a variety of posts about animal placebo and as such obscuring any actual science that might have gone into this. Therefore it would take actual research rather than a light googling to find anything scientifically valid on the subject.

I wasn't intending to make any statement about the validity of "if animals can't experience placebo then dog homeopathy seeming to work is proof that homeopathy isn't nonsense", as irrespective of the arguments clearly sugar pills that have "the memory of water with the memory of arsenic" aren't going to do anything that regular old forgetful sugar pills won't.

[onebyone.livejournal.com]

Let us not forget, though, that homeopaths could easily be so utterly incompetent that their dilutions fail to eradicate the original substance. As such, I'd be very cautious about making an argument against homeopathy based purely on the supposed physical mechanism :-)

But thanks, I didn't mean to imply you were agreeing with the nonsense, I just didn't (until your second comment) understand why it was muddying the issue.

[onebyone.livejournal.com]

until your second comment

By which I mean, third comment. Dated a few minutes ago...

[venta.livejournal.com]

Well yes, at that point I reckon it doesn't really matter why it's working - if you've got a clear correlation between improvement in pain and tablet-taking for you, then hurrah and be buggered what Cochrane says.

I've never really noticed it doing any good and, since it's not doing any harm, figured I'd take it since it was "supposed" to be good for me. If I don't think it's "supposed" to be good for me then I'll save the money.

If things get worse now I've stopped taking them (last one this morning), then I'll re-start.

[shrydar.livejournal.com]

Ooh, thanks for this. I used to take glucosamine when I was having intermittent knee issues, and recently started taking both glucosamine and some zinc+magnesium when I restarted yoga. I'll drop the first for now and see how I go.