I have measured out my life in coffeespoons

[venta]

Oh dear, I think I just misinformed an Australian couple in a café :(

They wanted "flat whites". In England (particularly in branches of Pieminister, which do marvellous pies, but really only serve coffee as a sideline) we do not understand this term.

There was some confusion. Having (I thought) had the term explained to me by quantumboo last year, I suggested they wanted filter-coffee-with-milk. Sadly, I fear Quantumboo may have told me what a flat black was, and I extrapolated.

A flat white was, said the Australian lady, like a cappucino without the froth. Aha, said the English-not-first-language serving-person, a latte. No, said the Australian lady, nothing like a latte.

I think they got filter coffees in the end. But now Wikipedia suggests I'm wrong, and they're going to have got something not nearly milky enough. Wikipedia is also rather vague about the difference between a flat white and a latte.

Does anyone understand this posh foreign coffee stuff ? What would you understand by the term flat white ?

Comments

[undyingking.livejournal.com]

THe Crash Test Dummies did a song along the lines of Prufrock IIRC, 'Afternoons and Coffeespoons', which might have included the line?

As for a flat white, I would think it was a white which had been left out until the fizz had gone out of it. Either that or a rare kind of butterfly.

[venta.livejournal.com]

Not quite... closest they come is something like:

Afternoons will be measured out.
Measured out, measured out with coffeespoons and T.S. Eliot

Not heard that in ages, though!

[undyingking.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure if I ever have, but the title stuck for some reasons. Whatever happened to them, anyway?

[venta.livejournal.com]

I guess one of the tests failed :)

[venta.livejournal.com]

One kudo to you, it is indeed Mr Alfred J.

[pm215]

Workhouse Coffee (on the Oxford Road in Reading and my local coffee shop until I move this evening) includes a flat white in its menu (but then they have a number of obscure things). I'm pretty sure it matches what Wikipedia suggests. I don't think you're going to get that in a random coffee place unless you can describe how to make it (and the person behind the counter is willing to play along...)

[venta.livejournal.com]

Hmm. After chasing round Wikipedia's links, it seems that the difference between a flat white and a latte is whether or not you get 1/4" froth on the top. Is that really enough to make a fuss about ? Couldn't you (well not you, obviously, but someone who wanted a white flat) just order a latte ? Maybe say "hold the froth" ? Doesn't sound tricky to me.

[pm215]

Well, I wouldn't bother making a fuss, but then I'll happily drink anything short of straight espresso. But if I'd grown up in a country where 'flat white' was one of the standard coffee kinds I might well have ended up with that as my default coffee order, if you see what I mean.

[venta.livejournal.com]

I can understand them ordering it, and being confused when England didn't want to provide it. What I don't quite get is them describing it as "nothing like a latte", since research suggests it's actually very like a latte indeed.

[bopeepsheep.livejournal.com]

It is like a proper Italian latte. It is nothing like a commercial latte. See also: pizza. :D

[venta.livejournal.com]

That's basically what Wikipedia said - sadly it also gave little hint as to the difference between the two. Can you elucidate ?

[pm215]

Oh, and I think a latte has more foamed milk (but less than a cappucino), whereas a flat white isn't foamy at all (hence 'flat', I guess).

[venta.livejournal.com]

Also: I'd try a coffee place if I wanted one. Not a pie shop!

[mr_magicfingers]

When you're next in London, my favourite coffee shop is Flat White on Berwick Street. http://www.flat-white.co.uk/ Used to be my regular caffeine fix when I worked round the corner. Bunch of Kiwi's doing great coffee.

[redcountess]

For this Australian a flat white is indeed filter coffee with milk.

[blackmetalbaz.livejournal.com]

As someone who spent several years working in a "posh cafe", I'm a little confused myself. Wikipedia, the font of all knowledge, turns out to be useless... what they are describing sounds like a latte. It's suggested that a flat white might be closer to a cafe au lait, which to be brutally honest is effectively the same thing. Despite this, it claims that in the States a latte and a cafe au lait are sold as distinct beverages but fails to explain in what sense they differ. Further information would be handy, as I can see myself back in the waitering trade anytime soon :-P

[triskellian]

(Note that I drink hardly any coffee, but I do live with a coffee fiend.)

I'd expect a latte to be a shot of espresso with a lot of hot milk, and a cafe au lait to be a filter coffee with a shot of cold milk. Same ingredients, different proportions. But IANACoffeExpert.

[kissifa.livejournal.com]

According to my trip to Auckland, and a cool video on Youtube to back up my theory, a flat white involves heating but not frothing one's milk, and using a spoon or knife to hold back the foam and add the milk from the bottom of the steamer jug to the espresso, allowing a little foamier milk to enter at the last, which also allows for the contentious addition of so-called Latte art. The flat whites my parents oredered often came with latte art in the form of New Zealand fern symbols, which were very pretty. :)

[mrph.livejournal.com]

Odd timing. I had my first ever Flat White on Saturday, then you post this... :)

I'm still not entirely sure what they are, either. But they're very drinkable.

[hjalfi.livejournal.com]

I once spent some time in an American diner trying, with much failure to understand and general amusement on both sides, to figure out exactly what fried-egg terminology we both used.

We eventually came to the conclusion that my preferred fried egg style (solid white, thick but liquid yolk) simply cannot be found in America. I think I eventually had them over easy.

[sea-of-flame.livejournal.com]

I thought that was the standard way of cooking fried eggs!

Liquid white = Bleh, undercooked!

Solid yolk = Meh. If you have to, but what are you meant to dunk the rets of the fryup in? That's overcooked, and reminiscent of salmonella-scare days when mothers insisted all poultry products were thoughly nuked from orbit...


Seriously - what are the ways americans o their fried eggs then?

[hjalfi.livejournal.com]

Sunny side up = partially cooked white that's still gelatinous on top, runny yolk.

Over easy = cooked on both sides with the yolk runny in the middle.

(Over medium / over hard = the above, but for longer.)

Fried = cooked on one side with the yolk broken, all hard.

Turns out Wikipedia has a kick ass page on fried eggs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fried_egg), although the reference to UK eggs being 'sunny side up' is wrong. (I might fix it.)

[hjalfi.livejournal.com]

BTW, would you consider a 'normal' fried egg to have a slightly crispy white?

[sea-of-flame.livejournal.com]

At the very edges, perhaps. Hubby makes fabulous fried eggs - he seems to get the white fully cooked (without flipping them/overcooking the yolks) by spooning very hot oil from the pan over them towards the end to cook them from the top.

[venta.livejournal.com]

No, I'd consider that a horrible and overcooked fried egg. A normal UK fried egg in my world is partially cooked white that's still gelatinous on top, runny yolk :) Frilly, cripsy white is vile and should be stomped upon as a concept.

[venta.livejournal.com]

So, how does sunny-side-up differ from a proper UK fried egg ?

[leathellin.livejournal.com]

I'm afraid all I can really do is confuse things further by adding the Spanish terminology. Solo, cafe con leche, corto, cortado etc. And i'm still not at all sure if there is actually any difference between corto and cortado.

I don't drink most of the coffee variants anyway because they've got warmed up cow juice in.

[(Anonymous)]

Another nation divided from us by our common language? Re US eggs - try asking for "sunny side up"?

[(Anonymous)]

I drink black coffee, to me flat white is a paint undercoat.

[thefon.livejournal.com]

Am I the only aussie reading your blog? :)

To me, a "flat white" is the default, coffee with some milk.
You can get this in UK by asking for an "americano with cold milk".

So ideally made with espresso machine rather than filter, but both are OK.
No frothy milk. Served in a normal cup or mug (so _not_ an espresso size cup, or tall/long cup).

When I was growing up (in Australia), before the age of multiple choices, we just called it "a cup of coffee".

[venta.livejournal.com]

Well, redcountess commented further up, and she basically agrees with you. Obviously neither of you contributes to Wikipedia, though. Or at least, not on the topic of coffee :)