Oooh, time for a Holy War.
Apr. 23rd, 2003 09:29 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
ventaWell, it looks like the computer glitch I've been complaining about really is caused by running Outlook.
I'd like to find a new mail client. So, I'd require it to do the following:
Allow me to read emails quickly (ie, minimal number of keystrokes/mouseclics to go from one to the next, delete mails, etc)
Allow easy filtering of messages (I don't speak procmail, though might be prepared to learn)
Handle attachments in a nice way (otherwise I'd just bite the bullet and use pine)
Preferably one which can be easily operated by keyboard alone.
Preferably one which will cope with the 'add comment' emails replying to LJ updates. Eudora doesn't (though that might be because it doesn't talk to IE)
Probably some other things I haven't thought of.
Any advice ?
At home I use the free version of Eudora, but am not entirely happy with it. I love the fact that you can rearrange its components to suit yourself (the list of mail folders belongs on the right hand side of the screen, dammit), and it does have many good things going for it. On the other hand, its error reporting is crap, and the handling of messages if you read them in the preview window is very poor indeed.
(For bonus points: explain why Outlook causes this problem :)
I'd like to find a new mail client. So, I'd require it to do the following:
Allow me to read emails quickly (ie, minimal number of keystrokes/mouseclics to go from one to the next, delete mails, etc)
Allow easy filtering of messages (I don't speak procmail, though might be prepared to learn)
Handle attachments in a nice way (otherwise I'd just bite the bullet and use pine)
Preferably one which can be easily operated by keyboard alone.
Preferably one which will cope with the 'add comment' emails replying to LJ updates. Eudora doesn't (though that might be because it doesn't talk to IE)
Probably some other things I haven't thought of.
Any advice ?
At home I use the free version of Eudora, but am not entirely happy with it. I love the fact that you can rearrange its components to suit yourself (the list of mail folders belongs on the right hand side of the screen, dammit), and it does have many good things going for it. On the other hand, its error reporting is crap, and the handling of messages if you read them in the preview window is very poor indeed.
(For bonus points: explain why Outlook causes this problem :)
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no subject
Date: 2003-04-23 01:58 am (UTC)Handle attachments in a nice way (otherwise I'd just bite the bullet and use pine)
Isn't there a Windows version of pine? Doesn't that do anything sensible with attachments?
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Date: 2003-04-23 02:02 am (UTC)Yup, seems there is, though there doesn't seem to be any evidence of a version for XP.
Anyone used this and/or know if it's any cop ?
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Date: 2003-04-23 02:03 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-04-23 02:05 am (UTC)Ignoring (briefly) the whole business of security issues, I don't really have any particular gripes with Outlook. Apart from its utter refusal to let me add "-- " to my mails without using quoted printable :)
no subject
Date: 2003-04-23 02:27 am (UTC)Anyway. I use it because I like the way it handles multiple email accounts. For your purposes, reading/deleting/navigating messages is easy with the keyboard, replying/forwarding/composing all work with control-letterkey and filters are easy. For me, the links in LJ comment emails work fine, but that's cos I use it as my browser too (for two main reasons: tabbed browsing, so I don't have to have a different window for each open page, and the ability to turn off pop-ups, which is the best thing ever*). I don't know how it would work with IE.
* There was a conversation among the web people here a while back about which browsers they like best. I mentioned lack of pop-ups as a reason to use Mozilla, and someone else said 'I like Mozilla too, but I don't know why you have a problem with pop-ups, they work fine for me' ;-)
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Date: 2003-04-23 02:37 am (UTC)Pegasus
Unfortunately, Pegasus has quite a number of flaws which, whilst they don't bother me, irritate some people a lot. For examples:
* Awful support for HTML mail.
* Very poor support for auto-wrapping of long lines in received mail (varies with who sent it, 99% of mail is fine, but just occasionally it gives a horizontal scrollbar instead of linewrapping - usually with mail sent by
* Very poor support for sending mail to large groups of people (10+).
no subject
Date: 2003-04-23 02:39 am (UTC)Additionally, its help function really doesn't.
On the plus side, it does seem to do attachments quite well, and it does the message folders properly (unlike Turnpike, although I otherwise prefer Turnpike).
Well, I like Outlook
Date: 2003-04-23 02:45 am (UTC)What keystroke is it that causes things to lose focus in Emacs? And what does the focus come up to? Because I can't think of anything that would cause this--Outlook is usually pretty strict.
However, I would ask if either a) you still had the Outlook Assistant turned on, or if you had ICQ running. ICQ will often steal the focus away from you when you use quite common keyboard shortcuts. I always have to turn it off. Note that this also applies if you have the ICQ toolbar installed in Outlook. (I mention this because at one point you had an ICQ address, methinks?)
Re: Well, I like Outlook
Date: 2003-04-23 02:58 am (UTC)Assume you have ICQ and it's running. If not, ignore my wibbling.
1) Open up the main ICQ contact list, click on Main, then Preferences.
2) Go to 'Contact List', then 'Shortcuts'. You should see if you have any keyboard shortcuts assigned. I'm betting that Ctrl-Shift-C, which is assigned to 'Check for New Email', and will steal the focus from damn near anywhere, has something to do with cutting and pasting in Emacs. (Either that or Ctrl-Shift-E, which is send mail.) This means you could:
Key thing is that if this is the problem, changing your mail program won't solve it. ICQ integrates with your default Windows Email client--change your default client, and it's 'buggy' too...
My guess. As I said, don't shoot me if it's wrong.
Re: Well, I like Outlook
Date: 2003-04-23 03:08 am (UTC)There are a whole bunch of keystrokes which cause the problem - Ctrl-k, Ctrl-y, Ctrl-W, Esc-W are the main culprits.
The focus usually doesn't go to anything obvious, though occasionally Outlook pops up - my reason for blaming Outlook is simply that the problem doesn't occur if it isn't running.
I'm not going to shoot you (indeed, thanks for the suggestions) but I do think you're probably wrong ;)
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Date: 2003-04-23 03:12 am (UTC)Preferably one which can be easily operated by keyboard alone.
Well, mutt can do both of those, as it's a console based client. There is a windows port, but I've never used it.
It doesn't allow you to rearrange the components (at least the unix version doesn't), because it only puts one type of thing on the screen at once:
either the message headers, folder names or a message body (it possible the windows version actually uses separate windows for these, in which case you can organise them to your hearts content). It doesn't have the annoying problem of marking a message read because you've spent 5 seconds previewing it (whilst waiting to it to do something else).
It is aware of mailing lists, so that if a message is sent via a list, it displays the list name (and/or the sender's name), and you can send the reply to the list or the sender easily.
It doesn't do filtering: that's the job of a filter program ;-)
To some extent, it depends on whether you're bound to a windows platform. I'll second the vote for Pegasus if you are, although I haven't used it for a few years. It created all it's interface windows as panes within a main window, so again, you could reorganise them to your hearts content, rather than being stuck with the 3 different layouts that lookout offers.
Re: Well, I like Outlook
Date: 2003-04-23 03:21 am (UTC)If that is the case, it is possible to turn it off, although I can't work out how until I get back to my XP machine at home. But maybe you can.
Re: Pegasus
Date: 2003-04-23 03:26 am (UTC)* Awful support for HTML mail.
Surely any support for HTML mail is awful support for HTML mail? ;-)
Very poor support for auto-wrapping of long lines in received mail (varies with who sent it
I think the most likely reason for this is that it doesn't wrap lines in quoted-printable messages. Could that be it?
Re: Well, I like Outlook
Date: 2003-04-23 03:39 am (UTC)OK, now officially stumped and I'll shut up now. Though if you're looking to try something, there's some (probably a bit buggy) alphaware software out I've been meaning to try: http://www.dynamicobjects.com/index.html
Spaces looks like what Outlook would be if I lived in my ideal world--go ahead, take a risk, be a trendsetter. :)
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Date: 2003-04-23 03:47 am (UTC)Then again, if patched up, it might be fine. I recommend Qualcomm's Eudora though.
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Date: 2003-04-23 04:02 am (UTC)Aye, that's the one I use at home, as people recommended it. I have been rather disappointed in it, though, given how well it's spoken of.
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Date: 2003-04-23 04:06 am (UTC)Er, I'd regard any other behaviour as annoying :) I have my "mark as read after" set to the lowest time that it'll let me.
It doesn't do filtering: that's the job of a filter program ;-)
I gave you a spec. Telling me why my spec is wrong and what it should be is not how one ought to go about these things :)
From
Re: Well, I like Outlook
Date: 2003-04-23 04:07 am (UTC)Do you mean that you have no way, because you don't have emacs installed, or that you have tried, and been unsuccessful ?
(Did I mention it's an intermittent problem ? :)
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Date: 2003-04-23 04:12 am (UTC)And that focus problem sounds like a Windows thing. Dr. Tom recommends migrating to OS X. :-)
(Can you detect a theme here...)
From what I remember, the mail client embedded into Opera is pretty lightweight and functional and used to work for me. Later versions of Outlook were verging on OK, although their IMAP support sucked.
But I still miss pine.. :-)
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Date: 2003-04-23 04:16 am (UTC)But doesn't that mean that you've got problems using the keyboard to navigate? Looking at message 1, fine. Press down twice (to skip message 2, and examine message 3). Oh look, it decides to stop and think somewhere in the process. Message 2 is now marked as read. This might actually be more of a problem with the news reader than the mailer, as the news reader does tend to stop at inopportune moments, while it downloads some more messages.
I gave you a spec.
And you also said you might be willing to learn procmail, thus causing confusion. Ok, I'll rephrase my comment: Mutt's philosophy (being a unix program) is that a filter program should do the filtering.
The only awful part of
Re: Well, I like Outlook
Date: 2003-04-23 04:21 am (UTC)The fact that it's an intermittent problem leads me to believe that it has to do with 3rd party software running, but I could be wrong.
You could try turning Jabber on and off, and ICQ on and off, and see if it happens. These are programs that are designed to be 'intrusive'. I came across this problem because the keyboard shortcuts for Photoshop are the same as for ICQ, but ICQ intercepts them... hence 'grr... ICQ.' By the way, if the ICQ toolbar appears in Outlook, I believe you at least partially have ICQ running.
Re: Pegasus
Well yes, fair point. But then, the feature
Could that be it?
Could be. Certainly I don't know many people who use it. I'll have to get Bill to send me a long email so that I can test your theory.
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Date: 2003-04-23 04:29 am (UTC)For example, one of the things you cite - ease of reading mutiple mails in sequence with minimum user interaction - is very easy in Pegasus. You can delete the current message and move to the next one with one keystroke or just move to the next, again with one keystroke.
no subject
Date: 2003-04-23 04:35 am (UTC)Attachments are handled well in that you get the option to run them from pine if you want and it will open it with the appropriate program as defined with windows. The main reason I changed away from it is that I much prefer the outlook style of setup whereby you can see your folder lists and see how much mail you have in each folder and so on.
Oh, and after some thought I might be able to solve your problem. On looking at a few web pages I found out that emacs sucks and that you shouldn't use it. :)
More seriously I agree with whoever said that it was third party software. Outlook doesn't have anything that will grab focus from another program (unless told to do so like mailto links) and I severely doubt that emacs is set up to blur on a given set of keys. What else do you have running on your computer? I think the fact that it doesn't have problems when outlook is not running is quite possibly linked to the fact it is intermittent. If it can't be reliably repeated then you can't really conclude from evidence that it is outlook.
Oh, an which jabber client do you use and which server? Last time I checked all the win clients blew goats (admittedly several years ago but I considered them to be at beta stage at best as were some of the transports) and I used to use jabber.earth.li as a server but that had major issues with the MSN transport whichis the main one that I was interested in.
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Date: 2003-04-23 04:50 am (UTC)Well, it's pretty conclusive.
Problem happens -> switch Outlook off, problem goes away.
Outlook running -> Problem happens on average 2-3 times an hour.
Stop using Outlook for a fortnight -> Problem doesn't occur once :)
I'm using Exodus as a jabber client, and the Tao jabber server, which doesn't really handle most MSN things, so I can't tell how well the client would handle them. It claims to :)
As for third party software: currently running on my PC:
Outlook, IE.
Winamp
Tao's debugging environment.
One DOS box (or whatever it's called these days).
Exodus (jabber client).
Next time I've got some documentation or something to write, I'll try working with just Outlook and emacs running, and see what happens.
emacs sucks and that you shouldn't use it.
Who's that trip-trapping over your bridge ?
Re: Well, I like Outlook
Date: 2003-04-23 04:51 am (UTC)The what ? Why on earth would you want one of them ?
(ie it doesn't :)
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Date: 2003-04-23 04:54 am (UTC)I hate things not handling line-wrapping properly.
And I regard "can't convert html email to text email" as pretty much non-negotiably unacceptable.
I automatically assume that help functions won't, and more or less never use them :)
Re: Well, I like Outlook
Date: 2003-04-23 04:55 am (UTC)OK, I may be wrong. Tell you what--can you send me a link to your version of emacs? If I get a chance today I'll try recreating the problem...
no subject
Date: 2003-04-23 05:01 am (UTC)Specifically, the errors windown (which is supposed to tell you why your mail hasn't been delivered) doesn't appear to exist. It used to, then it vanished, and all subsequent attempts to persuade it back have failed. I don't like applications where it's possible to 'lose' things like this. This is really my main gripe with it - I've lost things repeatedly, though otherwise always managed to get them back eventually :) It's also very slow once it's picked the mail up - it takes a long time to sort it into folders (my filters aren't complicated). Quite often I know that I have mail (I saw it come in) but it becomes invisible for some time (60s+) while Eudora sorts it out and actually admits that it has it.
From a 'minor usability issues' view, it's a pain for the quick-reading-of-mail in the preview window. If the mail I'm reading is larger than the window, I have to transfer the focus to the window to scroll up and down. Then the delete key doesn't work - I have to manually transfer the focus back to the mail listed in the inbox to delete it.
The 'mark as read after n seconds' doesn't work well, either - it's more like a 'mark as read when you move to the next item'.
These are pretty minor, but when I run into them every time I read my mail, the cumulative annoyance is large.
Re: Well, I like Outlook
Date: 2003-04-23 06:16 am (UTC)Further details worked out since I posted this morning:
The problem seems to occur when emacs has the focus, and Outlook auto-collects new mail. Once I've looked at Outlook to let it know I know it has mail, the problem goes away. I'm going to try turning off the auto-collect and seeing if that helps.
Re: Well, I like Outlook
Date: 2003-04-23 06:34 am (UTC)Re: Well, I like Outlook
Date: 2003-04-23 06:41 am (UTC)I am currently translating application specifications for Foods of Specific Health Use put forward by a Japanese ministry. You have no idea how much I need distraction. OK, I'd probably choose other distractions if they came my way, but I really need something to get this stuff out of my head soon. Otherwise my blood shall transmute to Yakult or something--a neat trick of transubstantiation, but look at what happened to the last person who made a habit of such tricks...
Re: Well, I like Outlook
Date: 2003-04-23 06:44 am (UTC)There's no option called that.
I tried this morning unchecking the box which tells it to briefly alter the cursor when mail arrives; didn't solve it.
Re: Well, I like Outlook
Date: 2003-04-23 06:47 am (UTC)Ah well. I'll try and find an Emacs program and play about a bit this afternoon...
Re: Well, I like Outlook
Date: 2003-04-23 06:59 am (UTC)Ah well. I'll try and find an Emacs program and play about a bit this afternoon...
Kind though the offer is, I really wouldn't bother. I think it's possibly a fine matter of version numbers / other imponderables. There's certainly at least one other person in Tao using XP/Outlook/emacs, and he has no problems.
Get back to your Japanese foodstuffs :)
Re: Well, I like Outlook
Date: 2003-04-23 07:06 am (UTC)You hate me, don't you?
Sylpheed
Date: 2003-04-23 08:57 am (UTC)no subject
There are no infidels in your inbox !
(Sorry, inspired by your subject line.)
no subject
Date: 2003-04-24 08:34 am (UTC)