venta | The bands play it hard and fast go ripping through their sets

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The bands play it hard and fast go ripping through their sets

(It's just dawned on me that I rarely click on cuts when it's not obvious what's behind them. So why should you ? So, behind the below is a request for your thoughts on moshing.)

I've been vaguely pondering for a while about the dynamics of a mosh pit. On the dancefloor is a bunch of people piling around, looking pretty much indistinguishable from a fight, but as soon as someone falls over, people stop to pick them up. Two people might be thumping each other one minute, then singing along arms-round-shoulders then next. What's going on there, then ?

And yes, I do it too. I will happily hurl myself onto the dancefloor for Holiday in Cambodia, despite the fact that a bunch of bruises or someone's elbow in your nose is a fairly likely outcome. Why is this fun ? How many people take the entirely sensible view that no, that hurts, and they're staying a long way away from it ?

However, the reason for suddenly writing about this is that the mother (who's a columnist) (of the journalistic rather than fifth kind) is pondering writing about such things. So, as her part-time research worker, I have been requested to gather opinions.

So, what do you understand by the word "moshing"? My Dad tells me that all the cool kids in Darlington refer to the habit of barging into one another as, er, "barging". And I've known a lot of people use "mosh" to describe the keep-your-feet-still flick-hair-forwards-and-backwards I'm-listening-to-Metallica dance. (So have I just got it completely wrong ?) Would you use the word "mosh" ? What would you mean by it ? What other words might you use to describe dancing styles ?

Does anyone have any idea where the word "mosh" comes from ? And why the word pit ?

"For God's sake, someone teach the Oxgoths to pit!"

- Hatchet, c. 1999

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I'd use "moshing" for the hair-swinging-feet-still kinda dance, rather than for being in a mosh pit, but I'd still use "mosh pit" even though I wouldn't (necessarily) mosh in one.

Incidentally, I've also heard it called "koshing" (sp?), in Bedfordshire, but I don't think it was ever as common as "moshing", and I'm not sure if it extended to "kosh pit".

"koshing"

For reasons I'm not entirely clear on, my brain immediately expanded that to "kosher moshing". Er... it's like moshing but without the bacon ?

Maybe not.

<kosh>THERE IS A HOLE IN YOUR DANCEFLOOR</kosh>

Dear Liza ?

(And "eh?":)

It a Babylon 5 reference.

Yes, and I have admit to rotfl when I read it </sad>

Never heard of 'moshing' BTW </fuddy duddy>

For the purposes of (relatively) bruiseless moshing, I recommend being of a height where your elbows are in other people's faces, not the other way round. Try it!

Know any good dwarf nightclubs in Oxford ?

There's one in ....oh I nearly forgot. I'm not allowed to say.

Oi, if it lets you in, it's not a good dwarf club. You're a bloody giant.

I think 'moshing' is the correct word for the whole jumping up and down and bashing into each other thing. (In particular, I wouldn't use it in the sense

triskellian advocates.)

Not really my thing, personally, but I can see the appeal. After all, insanely loud rock music is already supposed to be as immersive and stimulating as possible - a bit of jumping around flailing your limbs seems very much in the spirit of it all. And if the physical contact means a few bruises, it's probably worth it for the sense of shared/group experience of the whole thing.

As for 'pit' - I always assumed it was in the same way that you have "orchestra pits". That is: the bit where the moshers are is physically lower than the area with the seating in. (Except when it isn't, but YSWIM.)

I think 'moshing' is the correct word for the whole jumping up and down and bashing into each other thing.

. . . an important distinction between this and jumping up and down *not* bashing into each other, which is clearly pogoing.

Ah yes...

Much my preference.

As for defn. of Mosh - I reckon both of

A:'looks like a brawl' and
B:'everyone swing your hair'

get the word used pretty often.

I did come up with a theory a while ago that the reason metallers, goths and others developed the 'long hair' trait was that the easiest way to avoid bashing heads while moshing (partic. in sense B) was to make sure everyone (else) had long enough hair that it'd hit you a beat or two before their forehead would, allowing evasive measures to be taken.

I like the theory :)

I was dismayed to notice, an Intrusion or two ago, that there is a bloke with combat hair. It looks like normal, quite thick, blonde hair, but it's bloody painful when it hits you. And he does flick it about quite a lot. I think he must have woven razorwire in it (how goth is that? :)

Did the CD reach you ? If not, hassle

zandev.

well I know at least one girl who's been known to tie screws (or, less offensively, bells) into her hair, but short girls are always the ones to look out for in any mosh . . .

I gave him the CD. He may have temporarily lost it though. :)

It was lost for hours 2 to 15 of its presence in the house, but I spent almost all that time asleep and lost too...

Was out of the house most of yesterday so it's having its first play as I type... Track 12 and counting. Highlights so far: recognising the sound of the Auteurs before looking at the artist name in detail (and who is Luke Haines?), the little harmony thing at the end of Busted, the slightly hurt voice in Nobody Likes You (When You're dead), and the ever lovely _{when I argue} I see shapes _{when I argue} ^shapes _{when I argue}

Oh, on the Moshing theme again, I've just been reading Jan Fries Seidways (on swaying and shaking trances) and any article I'd write about moshes would involve at least a nod in the direction of pagan/shaman/ancient-cults-of-bear-fat-and-sharp-sticks-and-lots-of-mud with their ritual drumming, shaking, possesion, conciousness changing and the like.

Luke Haines is the singer/songwriter who's always fronted the Auteurs (and also Baader Meinhof, and is behind Black Box Recorder).

He had a fit of ego, as far as I can tell, when the last album came out. Admittedly he more or less is the Auteurs, in the same way Hannon is the Divine Comedy. But even so, subtitling the album "The Songwriting Genius of Luke Haines" was pushing it a bit, in my book.

Nice rendition of the Idlewild middle eight :)

I own a copy of Seidways, but have never got round to reading it. I'll have a look when I've, er, cleared this enormous backlog of things I'm meant to be reading.

Luke Haines is...

well that explains why it was so distinctively Auteurs then. I'd forgotten he is (involved with) Black Box Recorder too.

A further observation... Looper's 'the Snare' is just like one of Orbital's 'The Box' variations, but with lyrics on top.

Seidways was just starting to overwhelm me with anecdotal evidence of (mostly Northern) shamanism, but then settled down to the practical about 1/3 of the way through. In a similar vein I guess I should get round to reading helrunar some day...

When I had long dreads, and was shaking my head vigourously, people did tend to back off. I had beads in them for a while, but that just seemed too dangerous.

Though, all those who've been whipped by such things should know that all is not entirely well in the world of the headbanging dreadee... when two come together there can be intertwining and all sorts of painful, head-motion-coming-to-a-sudden halt activity.

Always keep dreads away from the whirling cogs of your icon too... (as a theologian once said)

Jumping up and down. The moving-of-the-head-only, would imply headbanging, whereas moshing to me is jumping up and down and to an extent the barging into others. Although moshing often also involves hair going everywhere. All My Life by the Foo's is a good one to mosh to.

The original term, as far as I can tell, is slamdancing, which seems to have been the common term in the US hardcore scene long before it became common over here. I first heard moshing used for the I'm-sort-of-headbanging-and-sort-of-skipping-in-circles Metallica-dance, but it changed meaning quite soon - inside a year or two.

Any idea when it was you first started hearing it ?

Slam dancing is a much more descriptive name. I like it.

Mid-1980s. US hardcore punk. Rapidly spread worldwide through punk.

Must learn to read. I'm talking about slamdancing itself, rather than calling it "moshing", for which I must confess I have no idea of the timing.

Late eighties, AFAICT. It seemed to come form the punk/metal crossover of the period - fans of Napalm Death et al - and gradually became the default UK term for it, because the metalheads had more professional magazines than we did. And took them more seriously.

I can't find a good dictionary reference online (with cites and dates and things), but OTOH the OED's word of the day is comb-over, so the effort wasn't wasted.

Does that mean you work in an establishment which has an on-line OED subscription ? I'm jealous :(

I wanted to check the OED, but my paper copy is second edition (published 1989), so I didn't expect it to be any help. I may have a look this evening, and will probably find that "moshing" is an archaic agricultural activity or somesuch.

Unfortunately not. I used to. It was great. Especially for showing that the appalling corruption or shocking misuse of a word is actually consistent with the oldest recorded usage of the word in English, which happens an awful lot.

Yes, I've noticed that too :)

If there's anyone reading who does have one (or access to a CD Rom more recent than 2nd Ed.), could they possibly look it up for me, please ?

triskellian, I think

wimble said Brookes has one ? Of course, the person we really want is

narenek, who works for OED, but he's annoyingly over here on a course instead of in his office...

Yeah, I was just getting to that idea myself. Hang on a tick...

Mosh, v

[App. a variant of MASH v.1]

intr. To dance frenetically or violently to (originally punk or hardcore) rock music, esp. so as to collide deliberately with other dancers. Also occas. trans.

1983 Village Voice (N.Y.) 18 Jan. 30/1 Slam dancers..agree that it is ‘violence within friendship’... Besides, ‘you're so into the music and dancing that you don't think about getting moshed.’ 1985 ‘STORMTROOPERS OF DEATH’ Milano Mosh (song) in Speak English or Die (record sleeve notes), We mosh, until we die, We mosh, until you try. You think that you can try, But can you do the Milano Mosh. 1987 Washington Post (Nexis) 4 June, Normally we have a pit. In the pit, you mosh. 1993 Chicago Tribune 13 Apr. I. 14/3 It wasn't even clear if the crowd noticed the band was changing songsthey pretty much moshed obliviously through the slow ones and the fast ones, and even between songs. 1995 Face Sept. 159/1 But, hey, make like a wild thing! Mosh your mother! 2001 Observer 18 Mar. (Britain Uncovered Suppl.) 18/2 He's still there at the foot of the stage, moshing with Matthew.

mosher n. moshing n. and a.

1990 Rolling Stone 22 Mar. 26/2 Like a recent gig that erupted into a near riot when overeager *moshers careened out of the slam pit, felling bystanders. 2000 Time Out 26 Jan. 60/1 DJs Lydia & Rex spin raunchy rock trash and screaming indie, punk & Goth guitar grooves for dressed-up rockers and mad moshers on the huge main floor. 1987 Music Making July 6 Laboratory tests on *moshin' Russkies showed ‘a worsening of memory, loss of attention, a fall in reading speeds, and an increase in aggressiveness and stubbornness’. 1991 Twenty Twenty Spring 73/3 All funk-metal groups agree that one form of self-abuse is still legitimate: moshing, stage-diving and other forms of lemming-like behaviour are de rigeur [sic]. 1996 Cape Times 14 May (Health & Beauty section) 1/4 Victims of moshing are increasingly seeking damages for injuries.

Mosh, n

I. Simple uses.

1. A dance involving ‘moshing’ (see MOSH v.). Also: aggressive rock music (originally punk or hardcore) associated with moshing.

1985 ‘STORMTROOPERS OF DEATH’ in Speak English or Die (record album) (title of song) Milano mosh. 1987 ‘ANTHRAX’ (title of song) Caught in a mosh. 1987 Village Voice (N.Y.) 14 July 27 By the guitar solos they are literally bouncing off the walls... It's a mosh. 1995 E. WEISBARD Spin Alternative Record Guide 332 Suicidal Tendencies' lurching mosh ‘Institutionalized’, the greatest..underground smash in hardcore history. 1995 Time Out 6-13 Dec. 131/4 (advt.) Andy Cairns' Belfast trio hardened their sound even more for this year's ‘Infernal Love’ album, a move that delighted both their metal contingent and their indie fans who like a mosh. 1999 Melody Maker 8 May 42/3 The..non-terrifying nature of their recent output. Less mosh, more mush.

II. Compounds.

2. General attrib., as mosh area, music, etc.

1990 Los Angeles Times 21 Aug. (Electronic ed.), The mosh ring and slam pits have become de rigeur and pro forma at so many post-punk and new-metal concerts. 1991 Washington City Paper 6 Sept. 38/4 Take, for example, seminal thrashers Exodus, whose mosh anthem ‘Toxic Waltz’ goes something like this. 1994 Sunday Times (S. Afr.) 28 Aug. (Metro section) 1/1 After midnight, when people are not sober, we play mosh music and people go wild. Everyone slams and bumps into each other. It is madness. 1999 Star-Ledger (Newark, New Jersey) 18 Nov. 31/5 The floor was divided into two colossal mosh areas.

3. mosh pit, the area in front of the stage where moshing usually takes place. Also fig.

1988 Orange County Reg. (Santa Ana, Calif.) 18 July (Electronic ed.), The Ramones provided the thrashing while those in the mosh pit down front..waged mock war. 1990 Sounds 10 Nov. 51/3 The security..helped the more diminutive among the crowd on to the stage if they had problems getting free of the moshpit. 2001 N.Y. Times Mag. 25 Nov. 62/2 Most of the media commentariat..viewed him as the adult in a mosh pit of moralists and America-firsters.

Hurrah for the OED indeed. And hurrah for them citing Exodus!

And hurrah for you for looking it up, thanks, I owe you a pint :)

Incidentally, whilst that description looks spot on, I think the dates are a little misleading. I'm pretty sure I'd heard the term "moshing" used before 1985 (and it would have to be pretty widespread for me to hear it).

Appropriate that you be listening to NMA while posting that, since some of the most violent / civilised mosh pits I've ever seen were at NMA gigs.

Clogs you know, hurt when they land on your feet.

As for why... it's partly un-limited dancing, cutting loose completely, losing yourself in the music and the moment, knowing that those around you are doing the same and all are prepared for the occasional flailing limb. And the arms round shoulders that follows is because while there might be violent dancing in the pit, it's rarely violence directed toward anyone, but simply to flow with the often violent and outraged lyrics.

The most dangerous mosher I ever knew was a big NMA fan (but only a little fella) who used to follow them on tour, sleeping in ditches if need be. He once tried to pierce his own bellybutton with a hammer, a nail and a kitchen table.

Clogs you know, hurt when they land on your feet.

I find this is minimised by, er, wearing clogs :)

Actually, I think the most serious injury I've ever (knowingly) inflicted while moshing was at an NMA gig last year. I did nothing but jump upwards, except the Very Tall Guy behind me had his chin directly over my head. Crack!

Ironically, the person I usually see NMA with is completely un-mosh-pit-aware, and thus unprepared for flailing. She's constantly getting injured/affronted/cross at people who accidentally bump into her, as she doesn't seem to be able to roll with the bumps, but wants to stand close to the stage.

she doesn't seem to be able to roll with the bumps

The worst for that kind of thing tend to be Adolescent Boys There With Their Girlfriends. Either through protective or jealous urges, they end up hedgehogging with elbows out, apparently in an attempt to get their bird through the gig without her ever being touched by another person.

Of course NMA gigs might be relatively free of small children.

Enormous thanks to everyone. Venta: buy Triskellian TWO pints and I'll sub you next weekend.
When I was dancing to what, for want of a better word, we have to call pop (to Bill Haley records et al) the best dancer in town threw you in a somersault over his shoulders - and you think moshing can hurt????
Venta's Mum.

I first heard the term "Slam Dancing" used here in Gainesville Florida a bit after I first came up to the University. Probably in 1989.

Until that time I'd lived a horribly sheltered life, so the term may very well have been in wide use, but outside of my peer group.

At some point in the mid '90s I heard people use the term "Moshing" and "Mosh pit" more often than "Slam Dancing".

Being 1) new to the club scene and 2) 130 kilos; my "role" in the local mosh culture was essentially that of a retaining wall. If an over-exuberant mosher tried to bounce out of the field, I tossed 'em back into play.

Later on I began experimenting with mosh dynamics. Specifically, pushing closer and closer into the swirling pit, but staying still and stable. Once there I would track the size and movement of the lagrange points I had created, populated by small, frightened, or resting bodies.

the saddest thing I ever saw was at the October, 1996 Gainesville Music Harvest, watching a pack of addicted slammers attempting to mosh to "They Might Be Giants"

Mosh + "Birdhouse in your soul" :== SURREAL!!!!!

I'd say "slam dancing" is certainly closer to what I do, when the moment seems appropriate; I've never been one to mosh. According to Dictionary.com, it's a "style of dancing, usually performed to punk rock, in which participants intentionally collide with one another."

As to why we pick our up neighbours up off the ground, or show comaraderie with total strangers... well, that is because... WE ARE UNITED BY ROCK!!!!!1!!one!!eleven!!!!

1!!one!!eleven!!!!

Can you explain this ? I've been seeing a lot of one, 1, and 111 comments on b3ta (http://www.b3ta.com) recently, and have no idea whence they come.

ÐµÐ3, ur jµ$7 n07 L337 3nµƒƒ 2 µnÐ3r$74nÐ!!!!1!!one!!!eleven!!!!!

:oD

This one goes to 11.

Much as it pains me to say it, I must agree with Hatchet.

Anthrax must have had something to do with making 'moshing' popular, with their 'caught in a mosh'...

Theres a whole bunch of other dances too, one of my favorites to watch is the windmill, but that has kinda died out now that all the rockers got their hair cut.

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The bands play it hard and fast go ripping through their sets

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Know any good dwarf nightclubs in Oxford ?

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Hooray for the OED

Good friendly violent fun in store for all!

Re: Good friendly violent fun in store for all!

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Mosh-mosh

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