venta | Anywhere you go, I'll follow you...

Current Music: Johnny Cash - One (yes, the U2 song :)

Anywhere you go, I'll follow you...

Hmmm.

This morning, on the way to work with

ao_lai, I observed that there was a left-hand, leather, but sadly not laceless, boot sitting by itself on the pavement. He remarked that the Bedstead Men were probably to blame.

When I'm talking (or occasionally when I'm writing), I tend to sling in random lines of songs, poems, bits of film dialgoue. Not for any real reason, I just like playing with words. And if you do that, it's nice to know that the people you're talking to have picked them up.

Not, as some people would have you believe, because I derive a feeling of smug intellectual superiority in knowing that my friends have read the same book as me, or what have you. More because it's like the mental equivalent of snap.

But, if you hear someone quoting something, there remains the problem of how to make it known that you noticed. Now, ideally you do this by making some witty remark, which adds something to the conversation, and isn't exclusive of people who didn't pick it up. So, what if there isn't such a remark, or (more probably, in my case :) you can't think of it ?

Do you just let the thing go ? If someone's worked a reference in particularly cleverly, it seems churlish not to acknowledge it... maybe I just lack the wit for the game :)

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The interesting thing about signalling that you caught references is that I know quite a few people who'll do this sort of thing even if they missed the reference.

Good grief... is this a genuine example of a meme ?! On LJ ?! Inconceivable !

The interesting thing about signalling that you caught references is that I know quite a few people who'll do this sort of thing even if they missed the reference.

Eh ? How do you mean ?

I'm capable of picking up references second-hand; ie I can mention flashing palms with the best of them, despite having never seen Logan's Run.

But I'm guessing that isn't what you meant.

Good grief... is this a genuine example of a meme

Er, is it ? I'm a bit lost now :)

How do you mean ?

For example, when expressing skepticism over an extremely dodgy plan I will occasionally offer the commentary: "Proot ?" This, as any fule kno, is a reference to Felix the Dawlri from the old WD cartoon "The Travellers". Once in a blue moon, someone will catch the reference and snigger. When this happens, the majority of the time one or more other people present who almost certainly haven't got the reference will snigger anyway.

The reason I tentatively claim this might be a meme is on the basis that it appears to be a set of imitated behaviours which are selected for. So if you laugh and everything you look like a dork, but similarly if you miss Spanish Inquisition references everyone will be horrified. etc.

Similar to the effect you get in biological evolution where some creatures have markings which say "I'm poisonous" when actually they're not.

"Proot ?" This, as any fule kno, is a reference to Felix the Dawlri from the old WD cartoon "The Travellers".

Well. Would you believe it. I always thought it was an AVL tree joke.

Besides, you saying "proot" is inherently funny anyway, references notwithstanding.

The reason I tentatively claim this might be a meme is on the basis that it appears to be a set of imitated behaviours which are selected for. So if you laugh and everything you look like a dork, but similarly if you miss Spanish Inquisition references everyone will be horrified. etc.

Sounds to me like you're identifying selection pressures for the memes. The variant memes are:

'laugh like you got it'
'throw a carrot at the speaker'
'insult the person who made an in-joke you didn't get'
'ask about the reference'
'say "I was going to say that but thought it too simplistic"'

and two pressures are:

'if you laugh and [at?] everything you look like a dork'
'if you miss Spanish Inquisition references everyone will be horrified'

The meme balance is indeed likely to depend on the relative presence of these pressures in the population.

Memes, like genes, obviously don't know they're being selected for. The stripes on the poisonous toad are caused by 'a similar gene to' [1] the ones on the faking-poison toad, it's the environment (and it's not liking to eat striped toads) that makes the gene succesful in either sort of toad.

[1] 'a similar gene to': I know this makes no real sense. I'm talking about a similar mechanism, a similar 'action'.

1] 'a similar gene to': I know this makes no real sense. I'm talking about a similar mechanism, a similar 'action'.

I know but this is one of my complaints about the gene/meme thing.
If a meme is the smallest particle then it is possibly analgous to a gene. But the stripe on the toad you just gave in the example is a phenotype. The pressures are related to the phenotype which may be the result of several genes or maybe the result of a gene which has completely different pressures acting on it which are unrelated.
(I'll explain that if anyone asks - quick word list, gene linking and mutation rates).

Nice.

You can still perform the analogy, with the meme being "wanting to throw a carrot at the speaker due to having seen someone else do similar in the past". Specifically, I suppose that the meme then is the memory of having seen someone react in a particular way to a particular situation. Other memes (such as "people often take offence at having a carrot thrown at them") might then affect or suppress the action of the first meme. But at this stage I think it's clear that the analogy to genetics is being stretched purely for the sake of it :-)

"If a meme is the smallest particle then it is possibly analgous to a gene. "

The only sense in which memes exist is that 'social' evolution probably has a smallest particle upon which it operates. We'll call it a meme. [1] If there's no smallest particle then, by definition, they don't exist (IMHO).

What are generally labelled 'memes'[2] are recognisable, repeated patterns of behaviour generated by one or more memes. Each individual instantiation of these (eg. a particular response to 'oh no, not the cushions') is akin to your "phenotype which may be the result of several genes or maybe the result of a gene which has completely different pressures acting on it which are unrelated".

The entire collection of memes in an individual dictates (most) behaviour patterns. When an individual action occurs and is responded to in the world (either positively or negatively) then a set of linked memes are being tried out and do well or poorly. Other people either copy the pattern of behaviour (copying the linked memes, in a modified fashion) or not.

Society evolves because we copy what each other does. The memes are what is copied, often in linked sets - these are behaviour patterns rather than individual actions, genomes and not phenomes.

Hope that made some sense. I think there's a general misuse of the word 'meme' that I don't often react to, but does gradually erode any credibility the atomification of social evolution has...
(almost like ideas can be hampered by the other ideas they're linked with)

[1] Imagine Darwin faced with the same question - what's the smallest particle upon which evolution operates? - he might have called it a geen, but he didn't need it for his theory of evolution.

[2] Things like lj quizzes, ways of opening a banana, ways of spear fishing, ways of painting

What are generally labelled 'memes'[2] are recognisable, repeated patterns of behaviour generated by one or more memes.

If an observed behaviour (peeling grapes) can be made up of one or more memes then what are memes? What is the smallest particle?

Is it the smallest 'piece' of that behaviour that can be acted on in it's own right? If a gene encodes a protein then is it true that a meme encodes a smaller part than the entire behaviour like a word or partial phrase or does that start to cause the system problems as it becomes impossible to identify how many memes are associated with a behaviour?

I think the problem we have here is that one meaning of the word is well-defined, but might not exist as far as we know and in any case we can't say anything interesting about it, whereas the other meaning of the word has all kinds of things we can say about it, but is not analogous to genes in genetics, and thus totally ruins the analogy to genetics.

I find just giving a "knowing nod" and "wry smile" about every 45 seconds can make me appear a lot smarter and wittier than I am.

Maybe that should be I hope rather than than I find but it's my illusion and I'm going to stick to it.

The line that has ruined my life though is "I don't like sand..." as now whenever I say "I don't like baked beans (or whatever)" I have to suppress the urge to go on about soft people who aren't coarse.

Damn you George Lucas!

I don't like Mondays

But isn't it Friday? I'm a bit confused as it's my first day in the office, but still...

"I don't like Mondays. It's coarse and rough and irritates and it gets everywhere. Not like you...soft and smooth."

I feel it loses something... I can't quite put my finger on it though.

"I don't like Mondays. It's coarse and rough and irritates and it gets everywhere. Not like you...soft and smooth."

Er, reconstructing this with "sand" in - are you seriously telling me someone included this line in a film ? Without irony ? And didn't become an international laughing stock ?

Er, reconstructing this with "sand" in - are you seriously telling me someone included this line in a film ? Without irony ? And didn't become an international laughing stock ?

Nope. He's a laughing stock all right.

Googling confirms to me that Episode II did indeed contain that line.

Someone give that man the slapping he so roundly deserves.

(Where "that man" is Lucas, not

smiorgan or

kneeshooter. Can't blame the messengers :( )

"I don't like sand. It chafes my wookie."

"~~Send in~~Attack the Clones" - Star Wars Episode II.

Totally without irony. Apologists have claimed its designed to recreate the appalling state of teenager love poetry A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away.

I was never like that as a teenager.

As to whether George Lucas, or the franchise, has become a laughing stock - only you can decide. However personally I only saw this one twice, after seeing Episode 1 quite a lot more times having gone to US especially...

The worst quote of the film to my mind, though it is really fanboy-cringe, is Christopher Lee (did he need *another* mansion?) to Yoda before the little green menace kicks his sorry ass with a dinky lightsaber - "This battle will not be decided by our knowledge of the Force, but by our skill with a Lightsaber". *cringe*

I'll get my coat shall I?

As to whether George Lucas, or the franchise, has become a laughing stock - only you can decide. However personally I only saw this one twice

I don't think we can say he's a laughing stock as a businessman. His model is pretty sound given that someone who hates the film has "only" seen it twice.

I'm not sure I'd go as far as saying I hated the film - wasn't particularly inspired would be more accurate.

Mind you I see a number of films twice, epsecially ones I really want to like...

"I feel it loses something... I can't quite put my finger on it though."

Oh I dunno, works for me.

Note to self: Avoid fruitcake :-)

Tell me why,
You don't like Mondays.

Thanks, I thought I was going to burst for a while there...

Is the silicon chip inside your head set to overload?

Ah, I posted before reading

wimble's earlier submission... the crown is his!

References are quite fun and are a nice way to tie bits of conversation into more specific descriptions and situations for the people who pick up on the references.

I just wish fewer references were from strange things on this TV like device. I stand no chance. A whole new conversation based on the witty remarks recongnising a buffy reference for example drives me round the bend on a regular basis..

Blame it on the original referee. The art of dropping in a reference is (a) to make sure that your recipient will get it and (b) to allow a suitably referential comeback, if possible. No other response is suitable, other than a knowing grin.

I'll always remember:

Mark C: 6th level - that makes me a Llama, doesn't it?
me: I can tell that by the way you walk.
Mo: No, that's a lawn mower.

Class

Is it time for lunch already?

(And nobody around here knows why I connect that with lawnmowers. It's a real shame).

Is it time for lunch already?

etc

a reference which ought to turn up in conversation from now on..

"Mantraps. Would you like a cup of tea?"

Eh ?

(Not that I understood

smiorgan's lawnmower, either, but...)

Line from Ripley's Game.

You can have
"Make like a tree and..." if you would prefer ;-)

This sort of stroking is one of the most important bonding behaviours I have with my friends (since we'd never talk about messy stuff like feelings). So if a giggle wasn't sufficient, or could have been faked, I'd simply say 'Ah, Flanders and Swann' or whatever was appropriate.

(Inevitably, particular references accrue entertainment value beyond the amusement of what's being cited. So it's worth making an allusion that you're certain will be recognised, even if it's hackneyed. Consider this a deterrent to 'faking' old friendship just by collecting cultural reference points.)

I love 'the mental equivalent of snap' to describe this. I must try using it in conversation to see who else reads you.

There's always a fine line between 'repeat while funny' and 'repeat until funny'. The former being one of the finest humourous devices, the latter an increasing irritation. Very fine line indeed.

As to the original question - a witty riposte or continuation is indeed ideal, but I think a grin, a nod, even a hand raised in thanks is easily enough for 'yup, got that, cheers'.

PS still haven't seen Clones. Hurray! That sand line is dreadful. Might have worked in Dune though... Sand Worm to Paul maybe?

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Anywhere you go, I'll follow you...

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gene/meme

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Demonstrating idiocy

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Oh, alright then.

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Difficult

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Hot damn!

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While i'm thinking about it..

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