Silence is a dangerous game...

[venta]

Last night, wimble and I pottered down to London to see the second half of the His Dark Materials stage play (of which a proper review will be fothcoming when I have some time.)

The journey home raised a strange question of what kind of behaviour is acceptable on trains.

As the train waited in, then pulled out of, Paddington Wimble and I were chattering vaguely about some stuff he was working on. We continued to chatter vaguely about a range of things as the train trundled into the night.

A little before Didcot, a bloke sitting near turned to me half-turned his head towards me and growled "<.mumble>... had to put up with an hour of this already". The three other people sitting at his table laughed in an agreeing kind of way. Being a paranoid sort, I leapt to the conclusion that he was sick of hearing a conversation about database queries, Bourne shells and the like.

Now, I don't think that, if you're eavesdropping on someone else's conversation you really have the right to complain about the content. Anyway, I thought, he probably wasn't referring to us at all, I'm sure it's just paranoia on my part. Wimble and I continued to prattle about various things til the train reached Oxford.

By this time, us two and the table of four were the only people remaining in the carriage. As we stood up to wait for the doors to open, one of the other four said "Let's go this way [ie towards the other door], they're still talking".

"Can you believe it ?" replied another. "They're still talking."

They sounded actually quite pissed off about it, too.

Now, I don't believe we were talking particularly loudly. We were just chatting, normal volume, like you would do on the train to pass the time. Is this particularly unusual behaviour ? Being able to maintain a conversation, on a variety of topics, for around 70 minutes doesn't strike me as particularly arduous.

If I get on the tube - the bastion of silent travel - with someone, I chat to them. No one seems to take this as terribly amiss. Sometimes I talk to strangers on the tube, which scares them, but that's mostly why I do it.

And now I'm confused. I know I'm talkative. I'd actually regard that, mostly, as an asset. And I'd regard the other people on the train as rather rude and unreasonable. After the first remark, I paid vague attention to them, and they were making occasional remarks - certainly nothing like the sustained conversation we were pursuing.

In general, would you get annoyed by people near you on a train, or bus, or in a queue chatting ? Am I unintentionally pissing off thousands every day ?

Comments

[beckyc.livejournal.com]

Well, I'm a big believer that silence is golden and all the rest, but those people were wierd and unreasonable. And you should have considered it your duty to talk even more ;-).

[wimble.livejournal.com]

And I never did figure out what they were on about, when we listened in on their conversation:

B is 1
Q is 2
...
D is 17
...

It sounded as though it must have been the solution to some kind of cryptographic puzzle, but there wasn't any audible discussion explaining what the puzzle was. I didn't mind them talking, but I did want to know whether the apparently interesting content was justified!

[bluedevi.livejournal.com]

Because, of course, talking is only done by Saddos who Have No Lives. Shudder.

[nja.livejournal.com]

Perhaps you should have done what the kid on my train was doing last weekend, and screamed your lungs out for over an hour. (Mummy wouldn't let him do something or other - climbing over the backs of the seats, I think).

But in general, no. Talking's not unreasonable, and if you travel on public transport you have to put up with the public and they have to put up with you, within reason. (Alan Partridge: I just hate... the general public).

[venta.livejournal.com]

I don't think there were any "is"s - just what sounded like co-ordinates: D17, Q2, E3 etc.

Hence the comment that they weren't leaving time for the other person to say "hit" or "miss" :)

(weren't leaving time, not were as I first posted.)

[froglet.livejournal.com]

Sounds like a bunch of grumpy arseholes. If they wanted silence they could just have moved down the train.

Bar shouting (which I can't imagine you were doing anyway) the only time people could reasonably get pissed off with talking is say a 1-2 am train/plane when they're trying to get some sleep. I hate it when I'm trying to sleep on an overnight plane journey and people are having loud conversations, but yeah, you're not a particularly loud sort.

[venta.livejournal.com]

Well, to be fair it was the 2300 out of Paddington, so arrived in Oxford just after midnight. Maybe they wanted an early night :)

[wimble.livejournal.com]

Ah. Somehow, I didn't hear you making that comment. I guess you must have been talking more quietly than they were ;-)

If I'd realised that they were actively objecting (rather than just suspecting), I'd have probably made some louder and more pointed comments about censorship and so forth. And the fact that the "younger generation these days; isn't it terrible that they watch television so much. The art of conversation is dying..."

[wimble.livejournal.com]

If we were really being sufficiently annoying, they could have at least asked us to stop, rather than grumbling.

In that kind of environment, I firmly believe in "put up or ask", rather than just grumbling privately. Usually, it's put up, which can be rather stressful, if the disturbance is (for example) screaming babies. But the mothers' are probably having a worse time.

[kneeshooter]

I always get confused by people speaking English on the Tube.

[mr-tom.livejournal.com]

If they don't want to listen to the conversations of others, there are two options:

* Have a conversation of their own.
* Buy a walkman and use it.

[venta.livejournal.com]

I didn't hear you making that comment

In fairness, I said it very quietly, because I didn't like the idea that they might guess I was Talking About Them :)

[bateleur.livejournal.com]

Buy a walkman and use it.

Better than an iPod, since it's heavier, but the more traditional baseball bat works even better.

[ewx.livejournal.com]

The other people should get a grip.

[phlebas.livejournal.com]

Likely one of those puzzles with a crossword grid full of numbers, then?

[phlebas.livejournal.com]

Hmm. You weren't in the Quiet Carriage, were you?

[wimble.livejournal.com]

That would have been my thought. But then I'd also expect to see them pushing the grid around the table too, as they illustrated the answers. This wasn't happening.

[ebee.livejournal.com]

I was faced with this anti-communication bizzarreness this weekend.

In Capacity of UKC Pagan Society President (nice title huh?) I'd escorted 12 jubulant and terribly excitable pagans on the train to and from Canterbury/London. On both journeys they were happily entertained by doing a quiz- I read questions, they giggled and heckled and then read answers back/bartered for points. The journey up there were a fair few people in the carriage but all gave us cheery looks and seemed utterly unperturbed and one bloke seemed to be doing the quiz as well. The guard even liked us so much he let us do a 'shout out' over the tannoy -very exciting that! (but we had bribed him with Lollies!)
On the way back there were 4 carriages, all very nearly empty. We were in the last one and continued our Quiz bartering until an irate American woman came storming over (from 2 seats away) to complain that 'y'all need to shut the 'ell up, this is a public place ya know'. We weren't making much noise, we weren't drinking, using mobiles or playing crappy ringtones, being raucous etc and were generally being model citizens bar occassional giggles and chatting not-very-loudly. I responded apologetically and promised to be quieter as a group but then found a small mutanty of irate pagans to contend with who felt I should point out in VERY forceful terms to said American that it was indeed a PUBLIC place and thus talking was totally acceptable. To be fair, she could have easily moved to another carriage if it was bothering her excessively or moved more than 2 seats away from us.

I think it was because she didn't know the answers. But let it be known, if a 'Pagans stab Bush-ite in wilderness of Kent' takes place, I know who to blame!

[liriselei.livejournal.com]

a small mutanty of irate pagans

they were so angry that they grew tentacles ?

< impressed >

[liriselei.livejournal.com]

maybe they were making sarcastic comments about you and venta in some kind of secret code ?

[j4.livejournal.com]

Talking is fine. The people you encountered were a bunch of grouches and probably FREAKY WEIRDOS as well judging by your reports of their conversation.

I do get mildly annoyed by big groups of squealing teenage girls who manage to have conversations lasting 45 minutes and consisting entirely of "NOOOOOO! OMG!!!!!!! He said WHAT????" and "So anyway like I said hi and he said how you doing and I sort of said oh you know okay and like then he was like ..." and so on. But usually I can lose myself in a book, or if they're really winding me up I'll go and sit somewhere else.

[smiorgan.livejournal.com]

Different sorts of noise piss different people off in different ways. Need a sound engineer to properly comment, but I reckon voices tend to penetrate and are distracting because of recognisable signatures, frequency, and irregularity - compare that to the low frequency broadband noise of a train which is fairly constant and so easier to sleep through. I guess that's why people find loud walkmans on the tube annoying as well.

And different people can say the same things in different ways. A shrill voice, or bad grammar, or inane comments, or squealing girlies usually raise the red mist in me. But what's an acceptable volume level to one person may be just too much for another - and face it, the extroverts among us tend to talk louder, say more inane things, and are more willing to talk over one another in order to get their point across - all things which are anathema to the introverts. I think you're witnessing the classic personality clash between extrovert and introvert.

But given that you encountered a pack of people who all felt you were talking too much, my guess is that they were actually enjoying being put out by having to listen to your conversation, so they could grumble about it between themselves. Which is kind of perverse, and rude. I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.

[cardinalsin.livejournal.com]

I was wondering that, too. The other option is that they were involved in some kind of psychology study on complaints.

Of course, the most likely option is that they were just gits.

As others have said, there's different tolerance levels for noise, but my sense is that regardless of your tolerance level, there's only a few conventions on making it: If you're in the quiet carriage or a library or something, don't do it, if you're in a theme park or disco or something, be as loud as you like, and if you're elsewhere, keep it to conversation-level.

[mr-flay.livejournal.com]

"Could you speak a little more quietly please?" would have been appropriate. Muttering rudely (and loudly enough for it to be clear that they were slighting you because they have little else to occupy their minuscule little headmeats) is not appropriate behaviour, and you would have been well within your rights to mock their sad, empty lives.

This is why I carry a cosh...

[froglet.livejournal.com]

If it was stopping at Didcot (slow train) then it was probably one of the little white turbo units not the flashy new things and they don't have a quiet carriage.

[feanelwa.livejournal.com]

Clearly that was somebody who wants to live in a world where nobody talks to their neighbours and everybody's favourite hobby is watching the television on their own every night and all weekend. If I were you I would have engaged them in interesting conversation until their little brains exploded.

[eostar.livejournal.com]

I agree whole heartedly.

But what struck me as really odd, was that they were still muttering when you went to get off the train. At that point they were n't having to "put up" with your conversation any longer. Weird.

The World Has Gone Mad (Part MMV, Chapter III)

[marjory.livejournal.com]

There is a word for people like that. Several dozen, many of which are low Anglo Saxon in derivation, often come in handy 4 letter sizes and can be joined together in a variety of amusing and satisfying ways for when one syllable just isn't enough.

Maybe they were just Londoners.

Such experiences are indeed soul-tarnishing in a low-grade fashion.

One irksome London Transport experience I had involved being temporarily stranded in Tulse Hill station (now you know that the story isn't going to get any better...). It was deserted, but I always carry a book, so no probs. I sat down to wait for a train back to civilisation and after some time a girl came onto the platform. Of every seat that she could have chosen to sit on to await her train, she chose the one right next to me. She then got out her mobile and commenced to have a Dom Joly-style bellowing conversation with her mate (this is shockingly common). I didn't feel like moving and couldn't even be arsed to 'tsk!' although I couldn't very well not hear her on account of having functioning ears. I really wasn't listening, at least not voluntarily. Honest!

Nonetheless, I was shocked to suddenly hear her say, "Yeah, well, I can't really speak to you, 'cos I'm sat next to this weirdo at the station and she seems a bit interested in what I'm saying." Gah! It's not even as if I could correct her arrogant misapprehension as that I had the slightest interest in what she might have been saying, as that would have meant that I had at least listened to her having accused me of eavesdropping, so she got me coming and going.
Maybe the same people who don't quite get the idea of conversations don't quite get the idea of the absorbed silence of someone reading a book as opposed to being fascinated by their mobile telephone and word puzzle-oriented lives. Maybe we come from parallel dimensions...

[neilh.livejournal.com]

Given the range of other things you could be doing on the train I don't see they have much place to complain....on Japanese trains there is very little talking, partly they're so loud you have to shout over them, partly its just *not done*. If you do talk on the trains there you are scowled at by the locals, but that just adds to the fun of it, (nearly[0]) nobody is actually going to do anything about it.

[0] see my earlier entry about the angry old lady who wanted us to talk in Japanese, one incident in maybe 600 journeys, 100 of which included talking with companions

[marjory.livejournal.com]

see my earlier entry about the angry old lady who wanted us to talk in Japanese

So that's happened to you too (except in my case it's German). You soon work out that there is no point in pointing out that when one is e.g. British and having a private conversation with another British person, speaking English is a fairly reasonable thing to do, plus anyway WTF?

The international cult of the loony is upon us...

[neilh.livejournal.com]

Yes, she wanted us to talk in Japanese, which would have reduced the flow of the conversation somewhat since my vocabulary is still quite small...and my companion asked her, in what I assume to be quite good Japanese, what her problem was. To which there was no answer.